The caro-kann is solid but passive opening. The sicilian gives black good winning chances.
Why are there few Caro-Kann players?
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Dec 1, 2013
0
#3
csalami10 wrote:
The caro-kann is solid but passive opening. The sicilian gives black good winning chances.
I guess that is also true,but the sicilian gives white way too many "fine" lines to play with,while the Caro-Kann doesn't.
Dec 1, 2013
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#4
I've found as black with the Caro-Kann if white plays 2. Nc3 or 2.Nd2, white can decide to do nothing, avoid immediate short-variation blunders and black will not have winning chances.
At least when white plays the Advance variation, white has to put in a bit more effort even though black may be under more pressure in this variation.
Dec 1, 2013
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#5
aronchuck wrote:
The caro-kann is a very good practical winning weapon. Up until recently my main defence as black was the Sicilian which I played for about 20 years. 2 years ago I switched to the caro-kann and I have a huge score with it in OTB chess - way beyond my expectations. I think it is because of the following reasons.
e4 players thoroughly learn a pet line against the Sicilian and they know it well as they get it in about half of their games. There are a lot of dangerous setups and Black has the resources to defend in all cases but the game is balanced on a knife edge. It is possible for a weaker player to play many moves of theory and understand what they are supposed to be doing with the final position. It is possible to lose many points against weaker players playing the Sicilian. With the caro-kann, on the other hand white players get this in maybe 1 game in 20 and so although they probably have learned a line they will not know how to play the resulting positions as well as in the Sicilian case because they have simply practiced it less. The theory is less well known to white players and so the real game starts earlier and your opponent is on their own more giving you good winning chances. It is especially good against Juniors and highly aggressive tactical players because they tend to be weaker in the endgame and will have created many weaknesses in their position while they try and attack the bullet proof caro. The caro-kann is less forcing and so it gives your opponent a chance to go wrong. The Sicilian is much more forcing and so even weaker players can sometimes find the right moves because they are much more forced. The Caro-kann gives a wide range of pawn structures. None of them are symmetrical and so there is plenty of room to play for the win.So I think the winning chances are probably even better for the Caro Kann at lower levels of play than GM. At the GM level the knowledge of how to play the Caro Kann will be there and so you don't have quite the same practical advantage as Black but it is still bullet proof and even GMs have difficulty proving any advantage against it.
That was some darn good explanation,thank you :).
There are many CK players; it ranks fourth in the list of most-played responses to 1.e4 (behind c5, e5, e6).
Dec 1, 2013
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#7
steve_bute wrote:
There are many CK players; it ranks fourth in the list of most-played responses to 1.e4 (behind c5, e5, e6).
What i meant is "why isn't it more oftenly used in higher rated games".
I think the whole question is based on a flawed premise. Tons of high level CK's going on out there.
Dec 1, 2013
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#9
BennyTifkin wrote:
I think the whole question is based on a flawed premise. Tons of high level CK's going on out there.
You are somewhat correct.But when was the last time you saw a Caro-Kann bieng played at a world championship game?
TigerTosunyan wrote:
BennyTifkin wrote:
I think the whole question is based on a flawed premise. Tons of high level CK's going on out there.
You are somewhat correct.But when was the last time you saw a Caro-Kann bieng played at a world championship game?
10th November 2013.
[COMMENT DELETED]
I think at the highest level, solid players can play 1...e5 and have more choices with black. In the Caro, Black has two main ways to play the Advance Variation while White has a plethora of ways to play the Advance Variation.
On the other hand, in the Ruy Lopez, Black can choose between several different setups while White basically just has the choice between a setup with d3 or a setup with d4.
Wow aronchuck, that was an excellent reply. Adds that extra layer of strategy to chess.
All the mainline variations are forced by White except 4...Nd7. Black can play sidelines like the Fantasy or a KID/Pirc setup. White chooses the Exchange or Two Knights variation. This means that besides whats noted above, if White wants to he can force the manline Classical 1)e4,c6 through 10) Qxd3,... moveorder & Black can follow as always down analysis that's been known since the 1950's. Or he can play 10)...,Qa5+ 11)c3,... & white is better. The general endings involve White's King getting centrally located first with advanced center pawns & his rooks become more active.
My answer to both of the questions: -the Advanced Variation.
Dec 2, 2013
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#18
TigerTosunyan wrote:
BennyTifkin wrote:
I think the whole question is based on a flawed premise. Tons of high level CK's going on out there.
You are somewhat correct.But when was the last time you saw a Caro-Kann bieng played at a world championship game?
Round 2 of the World Championship!
Plus, there are plenty of us out there. While I have pretty much played everything under the sun at one time or another, about the only moves I'd consider playing now-a-days against 1.e4 are 1...c6 (My primary defense) and 1...e5 (My secondary defense).
Dec 2, 2013
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#19
chessterd5 wrote:
All the mainline variations are forced by White except 4...Nd7. Black can play sidelines like the Fantasy or a KID/Pirc setup. White chooses the Exchange or Two Knights variation. This means that besides whats noted above, if White wants to he can force the manline Classical 1)e4,c6 through 10) Qxd3,... moveorder & Black can follow as always down analysis that's been known since the 1950's. Or he can play 10)...,Qa5+ 11)c3,... & white is better. The general endings involve White's King getting centrally located first with advanced center pawns & his rooks become more active.
It ain't like White can force everything. If White wants to go into the Exchange Variation with 4.Bd3, there's nothing stopping him, but Black gets excellent play in that line. I get great results against this.
In the "Main Line", Black has a number of options. It ain't all about the line that goes thru 10.Qxd3. Black also has:
- 4...Nd7, as noted above, which I play both this and 4...Bf5
- 4...Nf6, not mentioned above, though not my cup of tea
- 3...g6, Black is not forced to take on e4, though I personally don't approve of this line
In other lines, Black also has choices:
Advance: 3...c5, or after 3...Bf5, Black has a ton of choices:
- Against 4.Nc3, Black can weather the storm with 4...e6, or there are other options, like 4...h5, 4...Qb6, or 4...a6
- Against the Short Variation, Black ain't obligated to play 5...c5. 5...Nd7 is also a very valid option.
Panov-Botvinnik Attack - Here, Black has 3 main lines, not 1, though the 3rd I personally find to be completely unsound:
- 5...Nc6, either headed for a well-known ending after 6.Nf3, or else going into a wild and crazy queenless line with 6.Bg5
- 5...e6, leading to positions very similar to, and in some cases direct transpositions to, the Nimzo-Indian Defense
- 5...g6, leading to a very risky position for Black
The Caro-Kann is not a "White-Driven" opening at all, and it's not drawish!
Dec 2, 2013
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#20
TheMotherLode wrote:
i don't play CK because it's boring. but i do enjoy playing against it
Uhm, the Caro-Kann is NOT boring by any stretch of the imagination. Here's the proof!
http://www.chess.com/echess/game?id=72547760
I've recently heard alot of talk about the Caro-Kann bieng drawish and "boring".However in my opinion it doesn't give white any advantages early on and it also gives black a solid position and no "bad minor pieces" unlike other openings for black.
So the question is this,why don't higher rated player go for this opening and instead play the sicilian if it gives black such a fine position?