The pawn just ends up in the way on c6.
Why are there few Caro-Kann players?
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Dec 2, 2013
0
#23
ThrillerFan wrote:
TheMotherLode wrote:
i don't play CK because it's boring. but i do enjoy playing against it
Uhm, the Caro-Kann is NOT boring by any stretch of the imagination. Here's the proof!
That was a nice match,However you got that amazing position because your opponent went out of the mainline and went for some other "sort of bad" moves.good game nevertheless and you proved your point that the Caro-Kann can be fun when you can trample over your opponents like that :D.
Dec 2, 2013
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#24
DefinitelyNotGM wrote:
The pawn just ends up in the way on c6.
At some points what you say might be true,but notice how the c6 pawn is keeping the knight on c3 at bay,i'm not saying that will always happen but its somewhat of an "advantge" for your solid position.
ThrillerFan ha scritto:
TheMotherLode wrote:
i don't play CK because it's boring. but i do enjoy playing against it
Uhm, the Caro-Kann is NOT boring by any stretch of the imagination. Here's the proof!
This game is full of blunders by white
And there is an anti-Caro Kann line, which I prepared before the game...
TheMotherLode wrote:
i don't play CK because it's boring. but i do enjoy playing against it
Well said lol
Dec 2, 2013
0
#28
DefinitelyNotGM wrote:
And there is an anti-Caro Kann line, which I prepared before the game...
You could say your opponent played some pretty bad moves,i wouldn't call 2.Knight c3 "The best solution" against the Caro-Kann but it might catch some players offguard.
You can play c6/d5/g6 against practically everything if you want with low theory. You can even play g6 in the exchange although I think that's unnecessary. I'm going to try this out and see how it goes.
I liked the similar position from the Alekhine after 1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6 4.Nf3 de 5.Nxe5 g6. With the Caro-Kann move order I don't end up w/ a knight on b6 and avoid some of the more "claustraphobic" positions.
The advance variation of the Caro-Kann is huge fun to play. Unfortunately, it is white's choice to enter it. I had a lot of crazy games there with white attacking on the kingside, while black destroys white's center and/or attacks on the queenside.
TigerTosunyan schreef:
BennyTifkin wrote:
I think the whole question is based on a flawed premise. Tons of high level CK's going on out there.
You are somewhat correct.But when was the last time you saw a Caro-Kann bieng played at a world championship game?
Besides the recent game, they're also rare because 1.e4 is so far rare at world championship matches these days, mostly because of a few phenomenal drawing weapons for black after 1.e4 e5.
Dec 2, 2013
0
#32
aronchuck wrote:
DefinitelyNotGM wrote:
The pawn just ends up in the way on c6.
In the way of what? This illustrates the point quite well - white players when deprived of their obvious King side attack just do not understand the position and therefore misplay it and this makes the CK a good winning weapon.
If you look at the pawn structure - see Danny Rensch's excellent videos on the subject there are 2 main plans for Black. Black is aiming for c5 or e5 in this pawn structure. Therefore, the pawn on c6 is not in the way of any piece as none of them want to go there in order to carry out the plan. That's why the Knight goes to d7 - to support c5. In the meantime of course the c -pawn has kindly stepped out of the way allowing the Queen to move on the d8-a5 diagonal.
In the anti caro kann line posted Black went wrong as early as move 3! Bg4 is far superior to dxe4 which is just heading for a bad version of the classical variation.
THe CK is not boring when played the modern way. It got that reputation because several GMs in the 70s used it for quick draws so noone explored it properly. Itretains most of the pieces on the board and guarantees an assymetrical pawn structure. Ideal components in your position if you want to play for a win.
So the answer my friend when looking for a decent defence against 1 e4 may not be "Blowing in the wind" but it is still obvious. Play the Caro Kann! - That's a quote from Schandorff's excellent book on the Caro. (and Bob Dylan of course...)
After c5, the knight on d7 would love to be on c6 (if white cannot go d5, which we assume he cannot). There it puts more pressure on d4. So it's in the way. However, black has problems to solve in all openings. I prefer e5, even though I have an excellent score with the C-K.
Dec 2, 2013
0
#33
My guess is,like all openings,the choice of a defense to 1.e4 is personal taste;if indeed fewer GM's play the CK right now,perhaps that is a reflection on their personal style.Aaronchuck seems to know a great deal about this opening,and would probably second the idea that the decisiveness of a CK game depends on the line white chooses to play.I don't play the CK,because I answer 1.e4 with 1...e5,so I know nothing about the Caro from the black perspective.
BennyTifkin wrote:
ThrillerFan wrote:
TheMotherLode wrote:
i don't play CK because it's boring. but i do enjoy playing against it
Uhm, the Caro-Kann is NOT boring by any stretch of the imagination. Here's the proof!
Literally, 100% engine match, top choice, every move, start to finish.
Way to go.
Really?
ThrillerFan wrote:
chessterd5 wrote:
All the mainline variations are forced by White except 4...Nd7. Black can play sidelines like the Fantasy or a KID/Pirc setup. White chooses the Exchange or Two Knights variation. This means that besides whats noted above, if White wants to he can force the manline Classical 1)e4,c6 through 10) Qxd3,... moveorder & Black can follow as always down analysis that's been known since the 1950's. Or he can play 10)...,Qa5+ 11)c3,... & white is better. The general endings involve White's King getting centrally located first with advanced center pawns & his rooks become more active.
It ain't like White can force everything. If White wants to go into the Exchange Variation with 4.Bd3, there's nothing stopping him, but Black gets excellent play in that line. I get great results against this.
In the "Main Line", Black has a number of options. It ain't all about the line that goes thru 10.Qxd3. Black also has:
- 4...Nd7, as noted above, which I play both this and 4...Bf5
- 4...Nf6, not mentioned above, though not my cup of tea
- 3...g6, Black is not forced to take on e4, though I personally don't approve of this line
In other lines, Black also has choices:
Advance: 3...c5, or after 3...Bf5, Black has a ton of choices:
- Against 4.Nc3, Black can weather the storm with 4...e6, or there are other options, like 4...h5, 4...Qb6, or 4...a6
- Against the Short Variation, Black ain't obligated to play 5...c5. 5...Nd7 is also a very valid option.
Panov-Botvinnik Attack - Here, Black has 3 main lines, not 1, though the 3rd I personally find to be completely unsound:
- 5...Nc6, either headed for a well-known ending after 6.Nf3, or else going into a wild and crazy queenless line with 6.Bg5
- 5...e6, leading to positions very similar to, and in some cases direct transpositions to, the Nimzo-Indian Defense
- 5...g6, leading to a very risky position for Black
The Caro-Kann is not a "White-Driven" opening at all, and it's not drawish!
In the order in wich you replied I would like to respond: 4)Bd3,... white's choice. 4)...,Nf6 & 3)...,g6 are part of the KID/Pirc ideas mentioned earlier.In other lines: Advance-whites choise to play/Panov-whites choise to play.IF WHITE WANTS TO HE CAN FORCE......& WHITE IS BETTER.This is why. The Caro is a white-driven opening except the ones I mentioned & can be forced down a line where white is better. thank you
Do you dedicated CK players find the opening gets you to favorable endgames more often than other openings?
I would speculate that they many players want something less passive, more limiting and forcing as an immediate counter to white's plans, since not having the initiative is a difficult thing to deal with, against a really good player. Hence, it seems to be popular with players of less experience, just learning the game.
I think some GM's like it because, they can see the forest and the trees, and realize it can be a pleasing stroll through the jungle...
Mr. aronchuck, the original post title was "why are there few Caro- Kahn players" & my answer may have been to technical based on years of playing the Caro-Kahn. The Caro is a wonderful opening as long as your opponent (white) doesn't know how to steer the game into favorable chances for himself.
1) The 2 Knights var. & its variants - chosen by white - does not have to be played.
2) The exchange var. - chosen by white - does not have to be played.
3) The Panov-Botvinnik attack - chosen by white - does not have to be played.
4) The Advance var. - chosen by white - does not have to be played.
This leaves the Classical mainline & the various exceptions that I have already mentioned as Black's only means of avoiding mainline theory.
These are: 4)...,Nd7 , 4)...,Nf6 & 3)...,g6 wich are part of the KID/Pirc ideas, or the Fantasy var.
The move order is: 1)e4,c6 2)d4,d5 3)Nc3,dxe4 4)Nxe4,Bf5 5)Ng3,Bg6 (Nc5 is the Bronstien variation & well known as well as most diviations that happen from this point like exchanging bishops on g6 or manipulations of moveorders by black or white or both with the h-pawns. etc.) 6)h4,h6 7)Nf3,Nd7 8)h5,Bh7 9)Bd3,Bxd3 (White could play something different here than Bd3. But, do you want to give Black the monster bishop?) 10) Qxd3,... Here we get to my original point, Black can play mainline theory like 10)...,Qc7 or 10)...,e6 just as always and follow theory that has been KNOWN since the 1950's or Black can play 10)...,Qa5+,c3! & white is better. The general endings involve White's King getting centrally located first with advanced center pawns & his rooks become more active. Black's options are limited with the Caro-Kahn & if you understand that, wich I think most hi-level players do, that is why there are few Caro-Kahn players. To us unwashed masses it probably doesn't matter. thank you.
i don't play CK because it's boring. but i do enjoy playing against it
Uhm, the Caro-Kann is NOT boring by any stretch of the imagination. Here's the proof!
http://www.chess.com/echess/game?id=72547760
Literally, 100% engine match, top choice, every move, start to finish.
Way to go.