Why don't more people play the English?

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Chessflyfisher

I think that some players "fear" 1...c5--the Symmetrical English. 1...e5 is a Sicilian in Reverse.

LordVandheer
Ethan_Brollier wrote:
LordVandheer wrote:
Ethan_Brollier wrote:
NumerousBadgers wrote:

I’ve played the English opening for a while, and it’s objectively better than 1. d4, according to Stockfish on a high depth (Albeit a minor amount), and is incredibly good if you know what you’re doing.

Also according to Lc0 and A0. If NNUEs believe it to be better, I'll trust them. Granted I'll still play e4 because I'm a human.

A0 is old news and the match against the Stockfish was a litttle shady, it wasn't even the strongest Stockfish version at the time. Surely A0 is still beyond human comprehension.

What does current Stockfish and Leela prefer nowadays?

Leela (Lc0, A0's spiritual predecessor) prefers 1. c4 first, 1. Nf3 second, 1. d4 third, and 1. e4 fourth. Current SF isn't even worth looking at. It's an engine, not a neural network, so it's worse at openings.

Aren't the recent Stockfish versions a combination of NNUE and old method? I thought that was the case.

Ethan_Brollier
LordVandheer wrote:
Ethan_Brollier wrote:
LordVandheer wrote:
Ethan_Brollier wrote:
NumerousBadgers wrote:

I’ve played the English opening for a while, and it’s objectively better than 1. d4, according to Stockfish on a high depth (Albeit a minor amount), and is incredibly good if you know what you’re doing.

Also according to Lc0 and A0. If NNUEs believe it to be better, I'll trust them. Granted I'll still play e4 because I'm a human.

A0 is old news and the match against the Stockfish was a litttle shady, it wasn't even the strongest Stockfish version at the time. Surely A0 is still beyond human comprehension.

What does current Stockfish and Leela prefer nowadays?

Leela (Lc0, A0's spiritual predecessor) prefers 1. c4 first, 1. Nf3 second, 1. d4 third, and 1. e4 fourth. Current SF isn't even worth looking at. It's an engine, not a neural network, so it's worse at openings.

Aren't the recent Stockfish versions a combination of NNUE and old method? I thought that was the case.

Correct, but pure NNUE is still stronger. SF is worth looking at in the opening now (thankfully) but not on move one or move two usually.

nighteyes1234

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Please start your toy car engines!

SamuelAjedrez95
FrogCDE wrote:

He's a showman, obviously, and likes to put things in a sensational way, but he has a point in this case - letting the opponent occupy the centre without a clear plan for undermining their position is risky, and most inexperienced players are better off playing more directly with 1.e4 or 1.d4. I do play the English, but after mixed results with 1.c4 I'm following his advice and playing 1.Nf3. Not only does this give me English positions much of the time but I also get to play the Reti after 1...d5 2.c4, which I'm finding really interesting. (Admittedly that also allows Black to occupy the centre after 2...d4, but in this case that advanced pawn position is arguably overstretched, making it easier to undermine.)

He doesn't have a point at all. The line you gave for white was wrong. The main moves played there after c6 are Nf3 and d4 and then white is much better. Actually, in that position, c6 is a wrong move by black.

This is the issue with him. He just tells people not to play an opening by teaching misunderstandings of the game and providing incorrect lines. Instead of teaching the correct line he just says that it's bad and you shouldn't play it. That's total bs. He's very misleading and disingenuous.

sndeww
Sea_TurtIe wrote:

english is slow compared to other openings

humans perfer to attack and win or play positionaly

Of course naturally you cannot attack or play positionally in the english. Thanks for clearing that up for the rest of us.

Sea_TurtIe
B1ZMARK wrote:
Sea_TurtIe wrote:

english is slow compared to other openings

humans perfer to attack and win or play positionaly

Of course naturally you cannot attack or play positionally in the english. Thanks for clearing that up for the rest of us.

exactally lmao

sndeww
Sea_TurtIe wrote:
B1ZMARK wrote:
Sea_TurtIe wrote:

english is slow compared to other openings

humans perfer to attack and win or play positionaly

Of course naturally you cannot attack or play positionally in the english. Thanks for clearing that up for the rest of us.

exactally lmao

me when a fundamental characteristic of the game is removed because of the opening choice

Fade Away Oooooooooooo GIF - Fade Away Oooooooooooo Aga - Discover & Share GIFs

zeitmate

TLDR: baA lot of players play d4 and e4 because that's probably the first move they got introduced or taught when they were starting to play chess. I would bet 99.99% that is the case. Most of the opening setups they see are often initiated with d4 or e4. As a beginner, there is a saying monkey see, monkey do. I can't blame beginners. Then the cycle repeats until they realize they need to learn other openings. But most folks are comfortable with what they know.

zeitmate

I accidentally hit enter on my last message. TLDR. Basic human psychology.

SamuelAjedrez95
zeitmate wrote:

TLDR: baA lot of players play d4 and e4 because that's probably the first move they got introduced or taught when they were starting to play chess. I would bet 99.99% that is the case. Most of the opening setups they see are often initiated with d4 or e4. As a beginner, there is a saying monkey see, monkey do. I can't blame beginners. Then the cycle repeats until they realize they need to learn other openings. But most folks are comfortable with what they know.

TLDR: All e4 and d4 players are clueless monkeys compared to the c4 master race.

LordVandheer
SamuelAjedrez95 wrote:
zeitmate wrote:

TLDR: baA lot of players play d4 and e4 because that's probably the first move they got introduced or taught when they were starting to play chess. I would bet 99.99% that is the case. Most of the opening setups they see are often initiated with d4 or e4. As a beginner, there is a saying monkey see, monkey do. I can't blame beginners. Then the cycle repeats until they realize they need to learn other openings. But most folks are comfortable with what they know.

TLDR: All e4 and d4 players are clueless monkeys compared to the c4 master race.

Nepo who opened the WCC with e4: 🗿

SamuelAjedrez95

Nepo just hasn't realised he needs to learn other openings yet. Like they say monkey see, monkey do.

SamuelAjedrez95

Maybe Fischer, Kasparov and Karpov would've been better players if they took a note out of the book of zeitmate. They were just too comfortable in their inferior e4 d4 monkey ways.

LordVandheer
SamuelAjedrez95 wrote:

Maybe Fischer, Kasparov and Karpov would've been better players if they took a note out of the book of zeitmate. They were just too comfortable in their inferior e4 d4 monkey ways.

Hey, Botvinnik certainly did, with huge success too. Listen to the 2000 you patzer 😛

SamuelAjedrez95

True, Botvinnik was c4 master race.

The world if e4 d4 monkeys realised they need to learn other openings

DrSpudnik

It's kind of difficult to play well and is full of transpositional opportunities that mean you'll have to become familiar with other openings too.

Sea_TurtIe

honestly as black its solid,

in the english i either play it very locked or open,

for example

zeitmate

I see some folks getting butt hurt of the monkey see, monkey do expression. It wasn't an insult. This is just.how most folks start. They follow what they see. Monkey see, monkey do. Nothing wrong with that.

zeitmate
SamuelAjedrez95 wrote:

Maybe Fischer, Kasparov and Karpov would've been better players if they took a note out of the book of zeitmate. They were just too comfortable in their inferior e4 d4 monkey ways.

Big chance they did start with e4 and d4 when tbey were beginners because that's what they saw and probably what were taught by their parents, peers, or whomever was with them when they were starting out.

The context is when they are starting out.