I think the opening is rigid. It might be bad in the context of modern chess which is characterized by flexibility, but not bad in the sense that it hands black the advantage. I think starting with 1 c4 may be slightly better. One point is that 1 e4 d5 is possible to disturb the setup, but against 1 c4, d5 can just be taken, and I don't know of any other way to disturb botvinnik's triangle. 1..f5 is possible here and is prevented by 1 e4, but I think the dutch is less of a snag than the scandinavian.
Why is King's Pawn Opening: The Whale Variation considered bad for white?
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ThrillerFan a écrit :
SoupTime4 wrote:
pfren wrote:
Nyanut έγραψε:
Uhohspaghettio1 wrote:
Nyanut stop trolling. White's position is completely sound though he has given away the opening advantage.
Not at the highest levels. Black is better and in human chess has great chances instead of problems to fix.
Your comments are equally stupid and predictable like they were under your previous accounts.
Good trolling is quite obviously not achievable by guys of your kind.
I love pfrens honesty, in a world of snowflakes.
Like the snowflakes that tell you to inject bleach and Lysol?
That snowflake lysol the time...
jatait47 wrote:
Here's what GM Bologan has to say about it:
1 e4 e5 2 c4
This approach is rather slow for the Open Games.
2...Nc6 3 Nc3 Bc5 4 g3
Even more popular is 4 Nf3 d6 5 h3 f5 6 d3 f4!? 7 Be2 a5 or 7...Nf6.
4...d6 5 Bg2 f5 6 d3 Nf6
Black has achieved the optimal set-up: the 'bad' bishop is actively placed on c5, and White's center is pressured with the lever on f5.
The moves for white there are really messed up,
1. e4 e5 2. c4 Nc6 3. Nc3 Bc5 4. g3? (this is a mistake d3 is best both through my calculations and through stockfish on lichess) 4... d6 5. Bg2? (yet again d3 is best) 5... f5 6. d3 (this is too late Nc3 is better) 6... Nc6
Now 4.Nf3 (this move is the second choice for stockfish) d6 5. h3? (d3 is best h3 is fourth best move) f5 (second best according to stockfish) 6. d3? (yet again played too late) f4! (recommended by computer) 7. Be2 (second best move) a5 or Nf6 (a5 is fifth best and Nf6 is third, best is Nge7)
I would recommend 1.e4 e5 2. c5 Nc6 3.Nc3 Bc5 4. d6 Nge7 5. Be2 d6 6. Nf3 f5 7. exf5 Nxf5 as a much better move order as white is not yet down a pawn as in the other ones. Also computers are never completely right but the amount stockfish went towards black in the move order above proves how bad it is (and this is only around 25 depth, which means there may be better moves for white).
Sep 8, 2020
0
#25
It's bad for White because Black gets a comfortable outpost on d4. Black will go Bc5, d6, a5, 0-0, and have a comfortable game. Seems to me like White already has to fight for equality in this opening.
yes, that is true but it has an interesting name. I was only saying that I had looked into some of the lines and saw a problem with what jatait47 said about the move order. At best from what I've seen, it gets to -0.4 but that could change. Most openings with cool names are not that good though. (Also, I have won with this in blitz)
Mar 23, 2021
0
#27
ThrillerFan wrote:
Aim_mek97 wrote:
SoupTime4 a écrit :
"Bad for white" is all relative.
"Bad" will depend on the skill level of the people playing. The advantage blacks gains form this move order is a nice lead in development, which is a dynamic advantage. White will eventually catch up in development, and unless black has some idea of what to do, blacks advantage will disappear.
Sure it's all relative, and yes when I play it against stronger players things get tricky sometimes but still not enough to cause a real threat.
It doesn't take a "threat" to be worse. Both the d3-pawn and the d4-square are weaknesses in White's camp as early as move 3.
Every opening has certain weaknesses, but that one is gaping. It's the equivalent to an "unforced" error in tennis. With Black going second, sometimes having a gaping hole somewhere is inevitable. For example, the d5-square in the Najdorf, or the e5-square in the French or Stonewall Dutch. For White, this is completely unnecessary. White's weakness is usually occupied by a pawn, not a gaping hole in front of one of his own pawns. An example of a typical weakness for White is the d4-square in the King's Indian Defense, but with White, you aren't going to have a pawn on d3 with a gaping hole on d4, you will instead be forced to advance the d4-pawn to d5, and the d4-square will be weak, but your pawn structure is c4-d5-e4, and so Black can't get to d4 as easily as his pieces can't cover d4 from the front. For example, a Queen on d8 covers a Knight on d4 is the White pawn is on d3, but with the White pawn on d5, a Queen from d8 will never guard the d4-square that is weak for White.
This may sound a bit advanced, but it's the only way to understand why 1.e4 e5 2.c4 is garbage, and 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 is sound, not making d4 weaker than it already is voluntarily.
What did I just read? This is so wrong on multiple levels.
The d4 square and the d3 pawn aren't an issue because white doesn't have to play like that, the opening is 1.e4 e5 2.c4, no d3, no knights, just that. You can punish most of what black does with 3.Nc6. For everything else, it's easy, just naturally develop. That's it. With perfect play from black, you can get destroyed in a matter of 10 moves, but no human is capable of the perfect play you mention on your "comment".
I have found that the whale variation generally confuses players at my rating (1100). It seems like my opponents are unable to figure out how to take advantage og my d4 weakness and generally he/she just ends up giving up control of the center or sacrificing to get to a more familiar position. I enjoy researching a bit about the openings I play and I realize that the whale variation is not an opening I can keep on playing if I get a higher rating but at my current rating I definitely consider it a viable option when playing white.
Personally, I dont like playing the White pieces, but when I do, I choose this opening the most. It's quite good at controlling the center, but I guess it is pretty limited.
Here is a game where I used the opening and it allowed me a solid opening into the game
25 days ago
0
#31
wrote:
Here is how I start most of my games when I'm playing with white, I play this opening both in live and deferred games, even in chess variants like KOTH it does a great job.
I think it opens up the king, but I'll try it in my games
24 days ago
0
#32
There's nothing wrong with combining c4 and e4.
For instance, I enjoy playing a Botvinnik-type formation with either color.
But you don't do it when Black can dominate the d4 square with Bc5 / e5 / Nc6 etc.
You have a behind pawn on d3. Pawn structures are important for defensive play, which is critical if your opponent is developing their knights while you’re just pushing your pawns. Develop more minor pieces and gain central dominance early on. Castle early. This opening doesn’t really accomplish these things. I think this is why it’s considered “bad”.
i played f5 on move 5 and won the game in 8 moves
https://www.chess.com/live/game/4911704276
Well, that was an easy win. The order of development of your opponent was odd.. after f5 he could simply play Nc3 or maybe take with his pawn. I don't play this opening anymore but it helped me alot against ≈1200 players especially when you analyse your games, you will find that a lot of players tend to play the same way against it so you'll know what to do. it is also a very solid opening when you play KOTH. here is an example from my games :
https://www.chess.com/daily/game/252257330