why is ruy lopez considered the strongest - Chess Forums - Page 5

greenfreeze · 2015-07-28T05:23:19-07:00

i don't understand why the ruy lopez is white's best choice against 1.e4 e5 black does not have to play a6 and b5. he also has a lot of options that probably lead to equality. i don't understand why italian game is not equal to ruy lopez because they have similar pawn structure the

Game_of_Pawns

Jul 28, 2015

0

#81

I haven't assumed anything of the sort. I have stated facts:

- FoS said that he believed himself to be a better player than you (that might be slightly wrong, I CBA to go back and find the quote).

- If FoS doesn't believe that you're not of master strength then he is not saying that he believes himself to be master strength.

Of course he may believe that, I don't know either way. I suspect he doesn't believe himself to be of master strength but that is neither here nor there. I haven't made a single mention of what I believe your level of play to be and I have no intention of ever doing so.

The funniest part about this is that you were the one accusing me of making assumptions...

Arawn_of_Annuvin

Jul 28, 2015

0

#82

casual_chess_yo wrote:

Reb wrote:

Game_of_Pawns wrote:

No Reb, it doesn't. For his statement to also mean that he believes himself to be of master strength, he has to believe that you're of master strength. The fact that you were awarded the title of NM some time ago is a very far stretch from this. DUH

He is right, you are being very dense. He has never said that he believes the Spanish to be inferior to an alternative.

As for people asking him for proof... Proof of what? That he believes the Spanish isn't this fantastic opening that some people believe it to be? He has given plenty of reasons for doubt. What more can you want? Words fail me.

This is funny ... what makes you think I am no longer master strength ? Yes I first got the title in 84 and you assume after 31 years I can no longer be master strength ? I have played 3 NMs this year in tournaments and drew all 3 games and 2 of the NMs were half my age and one a fellow senior . You are simply wrong to assume I am no longer master strength and so is FOS if that is what he assumes .

i've analyzed your games and i'm sorry but you're not quite master strength. You are expert level at best. Keep trying to improve though, best of luck.

Will you share your analysis?

Ziryab

Jul 28, 2015

0

#83

lolurspammed wrote:

Actually Williams DOES say he thinks the KG is the best way to play for a win with white against e5. Saying a certain opening is superior to all other replies to a second move is dumb no matter your rating. And btw people higher rated than you guys would disagree with you.

I'll watch the videos again. I remember his qualifying his comments a bit more than that.

They are interesting even though he repeats himself a little too much. I enjoy playing the King's Gambit. I go on a KG binge every few years, always learning a new way to approach old problems.

Ziryab

Jul 28, 2015

0

#84

lolurspammed wrote:

And I quote: "If my opponent plays e5. I ALWAYS play f4." -Simon Williams

Then he lied. He's an IM, not a GM as I had indicated earlier.

Ziryab

Jul 28, 2015

0

#85

Fiveofswords wrote:

i mean seriously...arawn...you argument seems to be this:

when creationists cavail over details in the theory of evolution, they are wrong.

ergo whenever anyone disagrees with anyone they are wrong.

Thats pretty absurd. but anyway if you think that then you should agree with me cause i gave my opinion first and reb disagreed....even though he seemed to decide that he agrees with me when he said "I am not claiming the Ruy is the best

Are you trying to shut down this thread by bringing in this religious nonsense?

Creationists are wrong, but you're the first to bring that up.

SmyslovFan

Jul 28, 2015

0

#86

Fiveofswords wrote:

i think the italian and scotch are as good. maybe the ponziani also. i also think white has good options on move 2 such as the vienna. but anyway the ruy doesnt happen after e4 e5... 2 nf3 nc6 are needed. black doesnt have to play nc6 so the ruy might not even be an option at all after e4 e5 so we can ignore it being the best option. (Emphasis added.)

5ofS has all certainly suggested quite strongly that other options are at least as good, and possibly better than the Spanish in several posts.

lolurspammed

Jul 28, 2015

0

#87

Simon Williams is a GM. He makes videos for chess.com.

Arawn_of_Annuvin

Jul 28, 2015

0

#88

Fiveofswords wrote:

but an interesting discussion like that isnt possible when reb is around. he just wants to be sure everyone thinks hes a great player...and im a terrible player...and the ruy is the best opening for white (on move 2)...but later claim he didnt say it

It probably wasn't worded precisey, but oftentimes strong players refer to the Ruy after 1.e4 e5 because 2...Nc6 is almost a given. 2...Nf6, 2...d6, 2...d5 and 2...f5 are all pretty much out of fashion at the top level. So you'll hear commentators say "he's playing d4 because he's just so sick of the Berlin." 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 is basically assumed.

Ziryab

Jul 28, 2015

0

#89

lolurspammed wrote:

Simon Williams is a GM. He makes videos for chess.com.

Indeed he is, since 2008 https://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=404454 and yet my ChessBase Database 2012 identified him as an IM so I corrected my earlier statement with error.

In any case, he last played something other than 2.f4 after 1.e4 e5 in 2007, when he was an IM. On the other hand, he does not play 1.e4 often enough to make his claim to "always play the King's Gambit" sufficiently credible.

His King's Gambit videos on this site express considerable enthusiasm for the opening and for John Shaw's book. He also diagrees with Shaw concerning the merits of 3.Bc4. I suspect that the five video series here is an effort to promote his two volume ChessBase series that goes into greater depth.

I'm well below master, but I think that the Ruy Lopez offers White better prospects of advantage against a prepared opponent. Practically, at the level I play, the King's Gambit may find more unprepared opponents. I've played both in correspondence, and have games in both going now. But, I prefer 1.d4, as does Williams.

MonkeyH

Jul 28, 2015

0

#90

Reb wrote:

Fiveofswords wrote:

Reb wrote:

Fiveofswords wrote:

i think the italian and scotch are as good. maybe the ponziani also. i also think white has good options on move 2 such as the vienna. but anyway the ruy doesnt happen after e4 e5... 2 nf3 nc6 are needed. black doesnt have to play nc6 so the ruy might not even be an option at all after e4 e5 so we can ignore it being the best option.

World Champions and other world class ( 2700+) GMs certainly don't agree with you it seems as many are known for playing the Ruy but almost none play the other openings you mention on a regular basis . I can name several world champions that relied heavily on the Ruy in their opening repertoire and cant think of any who relied heavily on the other openings you mention , care to enlighten me ?

non sequitor. gms will play what they know even if other options are as good. and they learn what they know by studying each others games. thus fashion. what is popular among gms doesnt necessarily imply superiority.

Nice dodge ! The fact is that , as usual , you dont know what you are talking about , as most B class players don't but at least most of them know they don't know much about chess . Your problem is that you think you know as much as masters and even GMs , encouraged by your engine no doubt and the fact that you rarely play otb tournament chess so that you are missing your " attitude adjustments " that most class players get on a regular basis when they play against experts and masters . I play enough OTB chess to know that I shouldnt argue with my superiors ( GMs in particular ) as I have had enough beatings by them to understand that they know far more than I do about chess . Kasparov brought back the scotch opening for a spell and I doubt anyone played it better than him and yet he played the Ruy far more . As for the Italian game , thats what I played as a class player but later switched to the Ruy and from personal experience I believe the Ruy is superior for white to the Italian .

II'm sorry Reb I normally like your posts but this is a little faulty. Just because someone is an authority does not mean he/she is right. This a logical fallacy. It's true you know better about me and fiveswords about opening knowledge but it doesn't mean this authority trick is a good argument.

Ziryab

Jul 28, 2015

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#91

Fiveofswords wrote:

basically reb...the lesson here is that if i just want to discuss chess...you should probably just discuss chess. dont make yourself become my mental outlet. im much smarter than you and will always make you look very dumb which isnt good for your coaching career.

I've interacted with Reb for six years or more on this site. I have no idea how smart he is. When someone starts talking about their own intelligence or their "mental outlet," however, I have a good start.

Arawn_of_Annuvin

Jul 28, 2015

0

#92

Fiveofswords wrote:

Arawn_of_Annuvin wrote:

Fiveofswords wrote:

but an interesting discussion like that isnt possible when reb is around. he just wants to be sure everyone thinks hes a great player...and im a terrible player...and the ruy is the best opening for white (on move 2)...but later claim he didnt say it

It probably wasn't worded precisey, but oftentimes strong players refer to the Ruy after 1.e4 e5 because 2...Nc6 is almost a given. 2...Nf6, 2...d6, 2...d5 and 2...f5 are all pretty much out of fashion at the top level. So you'll hear commentators say "he's playing d4 because he's just so sick of the Berlin." 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 is basically assumed.

you might be confused. the commentators know what black usually plays. if black is some sort of petroff specialist they would probably say white is avoiding the petroff. if black is some sicilian specialist they might say white is avoiding the sicilian. things are assumed because they know the players...not because its best.

No. I am not confused. At the very top level (that at which one might typically find live commentary) there are are no players that play the Petroff with regularity, as opposed to the Berlin. Everyone who plays 1.e4 is a Sicilian specialist. I don't remember every game, but if you go through the games of this year's major tournaments: Tata Steel, Grenke Chess Classic, Dortmund, Norway Chess, and Zurich I do not believe there was a single game that went 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6.

I also never claimed that they assume it because it is best. I simply stated that it is assumed. I'm not going to go back and read my post but I'm fairly certain I never claimed it was assumed because the Berlin was in fact "best".

Nevertheless, this is a bit of a digression. I think amongst strong players the Ruy Lopez is simply assumed after 1.e4 e5.

Ziryab

Jul 28, 2015

0

#93

Arawn_of_Annuvin wrote:

Fiveofswords wrote:

Arawn_of_Annuvin wrote:

Fiveofswords wrote:

but an interesting discussion like that isnt possible when reb is around. he just wants to be sure everyone thinks hes a great player...and im a terrible player...and the ruy is the best opening for white (on move 2)...but later claim he didnt say it

It probably wasn't worded precisey, but oftentimes strong players refer to the Ruy after 1.e4 e5 because 2...Nc6 is almost a given. 2...Nf6, 2...d6, 2...d5 and 2...f5 are all pretty much out of fashion at the top level. So you'll hear commentators say "he's playing d4 because he's just so sick of the Berlin." 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 is basically assumed.

you might be confused. the commentators know what black usually plays. if black is some sort of petroff specialist they would probably say white is avoiding the petroff. if black is some sicilian specialist they might say white is avoiding the sicilian. things are assumed because they know the players...not because its best.

No. I am not confused. At the very top level (that at which one might typically find live commentary) there are are no players that play the Petroff with regularity, as opposed to the Berlin. Everyone who plays 1.e4 is a Sicilian specialist. I don't remember every game, but if you go through the games of this year's major tournaments: Tata Steel, Grenke Chess Classic, Dortmund, Norway Chess, and Zurich I do not believe there was a single game that went 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6.

I also never claimed that they assume it because it is best. I simply stated that it is assumed. I'm not going to go back and read my post but I'm fairly certain I never claimed it was assumed because the Berlin was in fact "best".

Nevertheless, this is a bit of a digression. I think amongst strong players the Ruy Lopez is simply assumed after 1.e4 e5.

The Petroff was certainly more popular 10-15 years ago than now, but it has been played by 2700+ in 2015.

Arawn_of_Annuvin

Jul 28, 2015

0

#94

Ziryab wrote:

Arawn_of_Annuvin wrote:

Fiveofswords wrote:

Arawn_of_Annuvin wrote:

Fiveofswords wrote:

but an interesting discussion like that isnt possible when reb is around. he just wants to be sure everyone thinks hes a great player...and im a terrible player...and the ruy is the best opening for white (on move 2)...but later claim he didnt say it

It probably wasn't worded precisey, but oftentimes strong players refer to the Ruy after 1.e4 e5 because 2...Nc6 is almost a given. 2...Nf6, 2...d6, 2...d5 and 2...f5 are all pretty much out of fashion at the top level. So you'll hear commentators say "he's playing d4 because he's just so sick of the Berlin." 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 is basically assumed.

you might be confused. the commentators know what black usually plays. if black is some sort of petroff specialist they would probably say white is avoiding the petroff. if black is some sicilian specialist they might say white is avoiding the sicilian. things are assumed because they know the players...not because its best.

No. I am not confused. At the very top level (that at which one might typically find live commentary) there are are no players that play the Petroff with regularity, as opposed to the Berlin. Everyone who plays 1.e4 is a Sicilian specialist. I don't remember every game, but if you go through the games of this year's major tournaments: Tata Steel, Grenke Chess Classic, Dortmund, Norway Chess, and Zurich I do not believe there was a single game that went 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6.

I also never claimed that they assume it because it is best. I simply stated that it is assumed. I'm not going to go back and read my post but I'm fairly certain I never claimed it was assumed because the Berlin was in fact "best".

Nevertheless, this is a bit of a digression. I think amongst strong players the Ruy Lopez is simply assumed after 1.e4 e5.

The Petroff was certainly more popular 10-15 years ago than now, but it has been played by 2700+ in 2015.

Thanks for the game! I actually haven't followed the Grand Prix as closely as the other major super-tournaments. Of course I was very pleased that both Nakamura and Caruana were able to qualify.

Ziryab

Jul 28, 2015

0

#95