Why Not The Old Benoni?

The Benoni looks like a cool opening.  One question I have is, why is the Old Benoni so much less popular than the Modern Benoni?  I can only assume that from the Old Benoni, it is not possibile to achieve the Modern Benoni lines, or that there must be some other lines that are quite unfavorable for black. 

white has not occupied c4 with a pawn, so white can play a plan of placing a knight there which can create quite a lot of pressure for the black side. Further they can meet e6 with Nc3 and capture on d5 with a piece thus creating an outpost which is usually blocked by a pawn.

Your response is very revealing!  Seeing that I've found a knowledgable person in this area, I had a couple other questions.  In terms of move order, it appears that many of the Indian/Benoni Systems can be reaches via 1.d4 e6...  What do you think?  For example, this looks like a feasible way to enter the Modern Benoni.  The only drawback I can see is that is would rule out the Czech Benoni because it would imply a lost tempo since the pawn has already been placed on e6.  There is, however, a different variation that can be reached which is called the Franco-Benoni. 

It seems like 1.d4 e6 can be used to reach the Benoni, the Nimzo-Indian, and the Queen's Indian.  There is also the Franco-Indian.  Do you see any drawbacks or have any insights?  There are many French players out there would would like to respond to 1.d4 with e6, and it appears that there are a handful of good systems that can be used.  What do you think?  The French and the Benoni, though the pawn structures are different, seem to share the theme of having "locked pawns," which is also appealing. 

Playing 1...Nf6 instead of 1...e6 is better in that it also controls e4, virtually forcing White to place his Knight on c3 before expanding in the center.  It's probably nothing huge, but small nuances can mean everything.

And yes, like the author of post #2 said, the problem with the old Benoni is indeed 1.d4 c5 2.d5 Nf6 3.Nc3!

Also, do you play the French against 1.e4?  That's the other issue with 1.d4 e6 2.c4 c5 is that White is by no means forced to play 2.c4.  He can just as easily play 2.Nf3 if he's a Colle, London, Torre, or Trompowsky player (many Torre and Trompowsky lines transpose into one another), or another option that he has if you play 1...e6 instead of 1...Nf6 is 2.e4.  If you play the French against 1.e4, obviously you are fine with this, but if you normally play the Sicilian, or 1...e5, or the Caro-Kann against 1.e4, now you might have an issue.

The third thing is, after 1.d4 e6 2.c4 c5, White can still play an anti-Benoni with 3.Nf3, and now Black has limited his options by committing to ...e6.  For example, a common anti-Benoni line is the Kasparov Gambit (the ultimate reason I don't play the Anti-Benoni as White), which goes 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.Nf3 cxd4 4.Nxd4 e5 5.Nb5 d5!, and I fear absolutely no other defense to the Anti-Benoni, so if you played 1.d4 e6 and I decided to go 2.c4 and you play 2...c5, I'd highly consider 3.Nf3, something I wouldn't do against 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5.

Going one step further, many fear the Taimanov Variation, also known as the Flick Knife Attack, 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 e6 4.Nc3 exd5 5.cxd5 d6 6.e4 g6 7.f4 Bg7 8.Bb5+!, and so what "most" Modern Benoni players do is also learn the Nimzo-Indian Defense, but don't bother with the Queen's Indian or Catalan.  After 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6, they answer 3.Nc3 with 3...Bb4 while 3.g3 or 3.Nf3 they will answer with 3...c5 as now the Flick Knife Attack as been avoided.

My two cents, people who play the Benoni are more interested in creating unbalanced positions where they can push hard rather than play for theoretical equality.

Just remember that white may not play d5 at all, and choose to keep his pawn on d4. If black then plays d5, I think black ends up in Tarrasch Defense. If black then does cxd4, black will usually end up in the English, or even in an unlikely case, a Sicilian Maroczy:

according to marin, if given the chance black should go for an early 5..bb4 with good play for black.

White has been getting nothing in these lines.

i think the reason black usually chose the modern benoni instaed the old benoni, its that the old give more chanches to deviate. Quick easy example:

if black refrain from the immediate c5 for just 1 move, white almost always play c4:

In conclusion, its just to cut some white possibilities.

just my 2 cents.

As far as I know there are two positions in the Benoni that are usually avoided:

1) Black avoids Benonis where White can play Nc3 instead of c4. It's mostly because White can use the c4 square for the other knight and cause trouble on d6 and it's really helpful with the move e5. Some people don't mind it but it's a really complicated thing to play.

2) Black avoids the Taimanov which arises after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 e6 4.Nc3 ed 5.ed d6 6.f4 Bg7 7.Bb5+. It's just really dangerous... So in order to get a "safe" Benoni you have to wait for White to play d4, c4 AND Nf3. So Black usually plays 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 and only after 3.Nf3 Black will play 3...c5.

While white gets nothing, I'm pretty sure there are players like me who aren't very interested in such unbalanced positions so we experiment with different things.

hey hector, do you know that bumping dead threads just to advertize your team its really bad? 

Also.. how many times i have to refuse your team invitation? I refused alleady 5 times  ( at least ) do i get a special gift after 10 invitation refused? 

Sorry ghillian.  I won't bother you with the invites anymore.  I try to remember who I have invited before, but it's easy to lose track.   

Honestly, though, I don't understand what is wrong in posting in dead threads?  The information they contain is still relevant.  It's not like the news which quickly becomes outdated.  The teams I advertise in them are always thematic to the discussion and topic.  I mean let's look at this one.  The Old Benoni is still being played.  The group I'm promoting has forum topics, VC games, matches, etc. dealing with it.   We get bombarded with irrevelant Indian ads on this site all the time.  Aren't relevant opening group ads much better?

However, I have 2 more opening groups I plan to promote this year (for the Benko Gambit and the Budapest Gambit).  Then, I will be done posting ads in the forums.

A lot of really good tips here on transpositions for both sides to avoid lines they prefer over others. I recall when I used to play the Modern Benoni that I had a lot of trouble in the Taimanov variation (given above: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 e6 4.Nc3 ed 5.ed d6 6.f4 Bg7 7.Bb5+).

I play the Nimzo and QID instead these days, but the above suggestion of playing the Benoni only when white uses the 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3, and playing the Nimzo on 3.Nc3, is an attractive idea. Enough so to return to it again as an occassional substitute for the QID (and the Bogo Indian, which I sometimes play instead of the QID).

Interesting thread. Lots of good posts here.

http://www.chess.com/tournament/old-benoni-thematic-tournament-lt1700 if you're interested in old benoni and u1700

As a Benoni player (of sorts), I can tell you that the 7.Bb5+ line is completely out of fashion; indeed I haven't faced it in a few years now. I think if Black knows a little about what he's doing, White has trouble proving much of an advantage. Probably the most dangerous is still the modern main line (e4, Nf3, Nc3, h3, Bd3). In regards to the Old Benoni, yes I think probably after Nc3 the position is just a bit harder to play than a normal Benoni (assuming you're playing e6).

i play czech benoni and i like old benoni bc i can play f5 earlier without moving my knight.