I can't say what is specifically wrong about the Philidor, however as White I'm always glad if my opponent plays it and like the resulting gameplay ... (that doesn't mean it's bad, I also like to play against the French and Caro-Kann with White which have a good reputation :)
Why not the Philidor?
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Yes, maybe it has something to do with the strength of those typically drawn to it, and I will admit there are many relatively weak players who play 2... d6 without any more knowledge of that opening than any other. Still, you'd be surprised how many people actually think the Philidor is "unsound" as if there are direct lines refuting it. Well, there are direct lines refuting the Philidor Counter Gambit, but not the Antoshin variation we're discussing!
strateg wrote:
I say its a strong defence but some say its weak when white play with 0-0-0
Why not the Philidor?
AnthonyCG wrote:
It's passive. What's that bishop on e7 doing? Probably getting ready for an amazing trip to the g7 square via ...Re8, ...Bf8, ...g6, ...Bg7.
Yeah... And while you're doing all that White will just load up and start attacking the crap out of you. There's no reason that any master would play something like this when they could play an active sicilian. At least then they'll have some dynamic potential even if they're low on space. Here you just sit there and hope White screws up so you can play ...d5.
While White can castle queenside there seems to be no reason to. Why put your king where Black might actually have a chance of doing something to you when you can just go safely to the kingside?
If White castles kingside against the Antoshin, it isn't really critical.
I would like to point out that a number of Grandmasters play or have played the Philidor. Perhaps you should consult something known as a "chess database"? Can you provide a line in which White can, without any resistance from Black, attack the crap out of the second player?
those wrote:
Why not the Philidor?
3... Be7 is theory, not Nc6. What do you play against 3... Be7? 3. Bc4 is nothing to be afraid of and it less accurate than the lines with d4 immediately.
I like the Philidor with this move order
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ReasonableDoubt wrote:
@ opticnerve: 3... e5? 4. dxe5 dxe5 5. Qxd8+ with a clear advantage to white. Also, before 3... e5? that's a Pirc and not a Philidor.
Wrong, that isn't a clear advantage for White. It's actually an equal and drawish ending. Having White's king in the centre in an early queen swap ending is not enough to claim an advantage. There is no disputing this in this particular case, because what opticnerve posted is a main line. Look it up in the Chessbase database. Also, d6 is not only the Pirc. He eventually played e5, this is a TRANSPOSITION. i.e. getting a position from the Philidor in a different move order, thus avoiding some white lines.
I'm always glad to see it as well. As white it seems I almost always get a comfortable game... online that is. I faced it a few times in OTB tournament play where my opponent actually knew the opening and it was equal for a long time. When I won it was for the regular reasons and nothing to do with the opening.
If c5 though, then d6 is unendingly sore for black. I haven't seen any master games of this opening but I wonder how effective c5 is, or what kind of timing is involved.
f5 is probably doubleedged, but when black goes for this break I'm a little more uncomfortable.
I'm sure it's not seen in top level play because it's not considered dynamic enough. Especially at the class level though the Philidor is 100% playable, worth recommending even.
I'd have to second what "ReasoableDoubt" says.
In the olden days the Philidor was played with a view to getting in a quick f5 push for black. That sort of counterattacking system is considered highly dubious by modern theory, so it's really questionable why black would want to play the Philidor.
The line you gave with black pawn storming on the queenside looks impressive, but the computer evaluates 10.Nf5 as weak and gives 10.Nb3 instead with a nice advantage for white.
Something I would note with bemusement is ajedrecito saying that 1600-1700 chess.com = 900 USCF. Well, that would make his ratings 1505 bullet, 1474 blitz, 1152 standard and 1471 postal. Averaged, he'd be a weak class-c player.
Is that about right ajedrecito?
uhohspaghettio wrote:
ajedrecito wrote:
In fact, I recently saw a 1970 get into a completely lost position by move 8 in the Najdorf:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Bc4 e6 7.O-O Nbd7? 8.Re1 Be7? 9.Bxe6! fxe6 10.Nxe6 Qb6?? 11.Nxg7+ Kf7 12.Nd5, 1-0
Yes, if only he had studied his tactics more and not so much on his openings.
Wait....
All of us are right sometimes and wrong sometimes. We often get it wrong by overreaching. He's right in this opening line and just plain being rediculous when he's talking about the ratings here.
Realistically, I'd say chess.com ratings have a median point where they actually compare well with USCF (not that USCF is some absolute benchmark mind you). Lower rateds or higher and comparisons fall short.
ReasonableDoubt wrote:
Realistically, this is where I'd put conversions, in turn based chess on this site:
1000-1400 chess.com = 500-800ish USCF
1400-1600 chess.com = 800-1100ish USCF
1600-1800 chess.com = 1100-1400ish USCF
1800-2000 chess.com = 1400-1700ish USCF
2000-2200 chess.com = 1700-2000ish USCF
2200+ chess.com = varies depending on player - anywhere from 1800 to GM.
As for live chess, I'd put bullet at not convertable due to the ridiculous rating inflation (and because it's bullet), blitz at a similar conversion to what I put above for turn-based, and long games as also not really usable as not enough people play long games.
I'd pretty much agree in turn based.
For blitz I'd say it's close to equal, USCF versus chess.com, around 1750.
Just a qualitative estimate.
selfmate wrote:
I'd have to second what "ReasoableDoubt" says.
In the olden days the Philidor was played with a view to getting in a quick f5 push for black. That sort of counterattacking system is considered highly dubious by modern theory, so it's really questionable why black would want to play the Philidor.
The line you gave with black pawn storming on the queenside looks impressive, but the computer evaluates 10.Nf5 as weak and gives 10.Nb3 instead with a nice advantage for white.
This is interesting, finally someone discussing a tangible line. Well, 10. Nf5 has been tried at GM level, but I'm not about to dispute an engine and I am also not such a fan of the move for White, myself (though how long did you leave it on for to mull over the position?)
10. Nb3, from what I know 10... c4 is playable for Black? I am going out on a whim here, on the recommendation provided by GM Bauer in the Philidor files. Here is the rest of what he provides:
waffllemaster wrote:
I'm always glad to see it as well. As white it seems I almost always get a comfortable game... online that is. I faced it a few times in OTB tournament play where my opponent actually knew the opening and it was equal for a long time. When I won it was for the regular reasons and nothing to do with the opening.
If c5 though, then d6 is unendingly sore for black. I haven't seen any master games of this opening but I wonder how effective c5 is, or what kind of timing is involved.
f5 is probably doubleedged, but when black goes for this break I'm a little more uncomfortable.
I'm sure it's not seen in top level play because it's not considered dynamic enough. Especially at the class level though the Philidor is 100% playable, worth recommending even.
You are right about timing; Black must time ...c5 perfectly. Here is an example of Mikhail Tal playing the Antoshin Philidor as Black and timing it perfectly! For the complete game, check
here: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1139214
I think black does better in this variation:
Why not the Philidor? More specifically, why not Antoshin's variation?
Contrary to popular belief it ISN'T passive; the Antoshin often leads to sharp play and is seen at Master level, albeit rarely.
I've just noticed the Philidor seems to have a poor reputation around these forums and others, but when it comes to my games on Chess.com, White often seems unprepared. What are your favorite lines to play as White against this? Does anybody besides me play this as Black?