Its rather odd that someone who very often comes across as anti-American themself would condemn another for their anti-Americanism ....... care to explain that trysts ?
Did you listen to the interview above, Reb? I was only posting an answer to your question. I never condemned Fischer for being anti-American. From what I've heard and read so far, on his anti-American opinions, his Jew-centric point of view on the matter, is quite absurd.
Yes, I have heard that particular interview several times. I may not interpret it the same way you do though. Its clear to me that he was bitter and full of hatred in his last years. However, I think his anti-Americanism was more directed at the US govt rather than at ALL Americans. I could be wrong ofcourse, but that's my gut feeling. Fischer was an American and a Jew himself so perhaps he was a double self-hater ? Another poster indicated that Fischer also hated blacks, I dont know where this comes from ?
Yes, I have heard that particular interview several times. I may not interpret it the same way you do though. Its clear to me that he was bitter and full of hatred in his last years. However, I think his anti-Americanism was more directed at the US govt rather than at ALL Americans. I could be wrong ofcourse, but that's my gut feeling. Fischer was an American and a Jew himself so perhaps he was a double self-hater ? Another poster indicated that Fischer also hated blacks, I dont know where this comes from ?
I've never heard the "black" claims either, but I have not read and heard all his interviews yet. Fischer was definitely pissed off enough to not mind people in this country to burn and suffocate, while at work. I don't think of "Jews" as a race, but a religion, therefore he was a Christian, not a Jew. I doubt he thought of himself as American. He did say that the 'U.S. was illigitimate', because it was 'stolen from the indians'. So I can't agree with "double self-hater".
Fischer obviously had something flying around in his head.
Before watching this interview, I watched an A&E Biography on Fischer, listening to person after person talking about how "mentally ill" he became.
Well, I've watched the above interview a few times now, and nobody is going to convince me that he was mentally ill. He had a point of view that some would not argue against, and others were outraged by. But it was his point of view from his experiences. Whenever anyone calls him mentally ill, they just don't know what they're talking about, and just making up things about their fallen idol: "Somebody cut Sampson's hair!" "Look how Superman has been weakened by kryptonite!" "My hero has a disease!" Blah, blah, blah.
John Nash was very rational after 25 or so years of mental illness. He went into remission. It happens sometimes.
Yes, I have heard that particular interview several times. I may not interpret it the same way you do though. Its clear to me that he was bitter and full of hatred in his last years. However, I think his anti-Americanism was more directed at the US govt rather than at ALL Americans. I could be wrong ofcourse, but that's my gut feeling. Fischer was an American and a Jew himself so perhaps he was a double self-hater ? Another poster indicated that Fischer also hated blacks, I dont know where this comes from ?
Let's also not forget what day that interview took place on. It's no excuse, by any means, but the context is important to explain the kinds of emotional triggers and polarizing events that may have predicated such an outburst.
I can tell you that I definitely heard as bad or worse from people I know against a different group on that same day and those that followed. I'm sure I'm not the only one.
I can tell you that I definitely heard as bad or worse from people I know against a different group on that same day and those that followed. I'm sure I'm not the only one.
Indeed, I now regret my scathing outbursts and have put away my fat collection of The Truth about Canadians Mexican comic books.
The most upsetting part was that we had it coming.
In any event , Fischer is a chess hero and this is a chess server so while some may not wish to praise him ( for his chess ) due to his human failings others do... obviously. I simply grow sick of people who are ALWAYS tearing him down.
I would have no problem with you praising Fischer's chess. He was truly a genius, and needs to be mentioned in any serious discussions about the best players of all time. But I firmly believe that that does not give him a pass on pathological hate speech. It simply doesn't. If someone was a great athlete or actor should they be excused if they made public statements that were extremely racist or hateful? I don't think so. I can divorce the quality of Fischer's chess, which is beyond brilliant, from his public persona in later life. I am willing to praise his game. I am not willing to let ANYONE get away with denying the holocaust, which Fischer did, or describing my country as "a farce controlled by dirty, hook-nosed, circumcised Jew bastards". (Quoted from Chess News May 2001, via Wikipedia.) The man is widely reported to have idolized Hitler. (see the Wikipedia article for a variety of sources). I'm sorry Reb, but anyone who claims 15 million civilians, including 6 million of my fellow jews, did not die at the hands of the Nazis needs some tearing down. It is a moral evil, which must NEVER be tolerated, no matter how good the man was at a particular board game.
The most upsetting part was that we had it coming.
I can't agree here, TheGrobe. Though I think Chalmers Johnson's theory of "Blowback" is spot on, I don't think that is what happened that day.
I meant as Canadians.
In any event , Fischer is a chess hero and this is a chess server so while some may not wish to praise him ( for his chess ) due to his human failings others do... obviously. I simply grow sick of people who are ALWAYS tearing him down.
I would have no problem with you praising Fischer's chess. He was truly a genius, and needs to be mentioned in any serious discussions about the best players of all time. But I firmly believe that that does not give him a pass on pathological hate speech. It simply doesn't. If someone was a great athlete or actor should they be excused if they made public statements that were extremely racist or hateful? I don't think so. I can divorce the quality of Fischer's chess, which is beyond brilliant, from his public persona in later life. I am willing to praise his game. I am not willing to let ANYONE get away with denying the holocaust, which Fischer did, or describing my country as "a farce controlled by dirty, hook-nosed, circumcised Jew bastards". (Quoted from Chess News May 2001, via Wikipedia.) The man is widely reported to have idolized Hitler. (see the Wikipedia article for a variety of sources). I'm sorry Reb, but anyone who claims 15 million civilians, including 6 million of my fellow jews, did not die at the hands of the Nazis needs some tearing down. It is a moral evil, which must NEVER be tolerated, no matter how good the man was at a particular board game.
I totally agree here. From a football star training animals to murder one another for sport, to chess stars wishing people to be rounded up, and slaughtered (from yet another Fischer interview), I think divorcing moral judgement from who is respected, or admired, creates quite a sad state of affairs in this world.
If individuals like Hitler or Kadafi or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad had said some of the things Fischer had said...it would have been considered normal for such characters (and we would have hated them even more)...I don't think anyone would have "excused" them by thinking that they had become mentally ill in their older days.
It is easy to see these foreign dictators as blood thirsty, anti-western/american, siding with the terrorists etc....but it was Fischer who said these things...no one forced him too. Sometimes we want so much to believe in our heroes, that we forget that they too are only mere mortals...and not gods.
I was not surprised to learn that something like 90% of Olympic athletes surveyed responded that they would cheat to achieve Olympic gold, if it was guaranteed they they would not be caught. Yes, 9 out of 10 of our so-called stars...role-models...heroes.
...they are all just as flawed as the rest of us.
Fischer got a distorted image of the world and the morality.
His comments are just abominable.
Also, I don't know how he arrived to that point but his feeling of hate or fobias about everything around it is a sympton of pathology (and I not saying he was crazy or unable to make sense), also the way he looks or his way of living his last days show a lot of disorders and troubled mind. I don't get the point of believe that we should judge him now, as he died in January, 2008.
Robert James "Bobby" Fischer (March 9, 1943 – January 17, 2008)
R.I.P.
If individuals like Hitler or Kadafi or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad had said some of the things Fischer had said...it would have been considered normal for such characters (and we would have hated them even more)...I don't think anyone would have "excused" them by thinking that they had become mentally ill in their older days.
It is easy to see these foreign dictators as blood thirsty, anti-western/american, siding with the terrorists etc....but it was Fischer who said these things...no one forced him too. Sometimes we want so much to believe in our heroes, that we forget that they too are only mere mortals...and not gods.
I was not surprised to learn that something like 90% of Olympic athletes surveyed responded that they would cheat to achieve Olympic gold, if it was guaranteed they they would not be caught. Yes, 9 out of 10 of our so-called stars...role-models...heroes.
...they are all just as flawed as the rest of us.
I like your comment, jesterville. But I totally disagree with what you're implying about Ahmadinejad. Quite a bit of lies and propaganda about him in the Western media.
Point #1
Hitler's anti semitism was a way for him to scapegoat the problems of post WW1 Germany onto "others". A viewpoint that he could then exploit for political gain, by telling people their problems were caused by Jews. Ditto with the Extemists (on both sides) in the middle east today. They're basically saying "your problems are caused by [Jews, Palestinians, Sunnis, Shias, whomever], so support me and I'll make that group (and thus your problems) go away." It's extremism for political gain. It's something we see from sane people all the time in politics everywhere.
Point #2
Fischer believed the jews were out to get him. I can't say for sure that they weren't (I'm not a jew, I wouldn't know), but it doesn't seem very likely.On the other hand, Bin Laden ALSO believes the jews are out to get him... and they are. From this alone I think it's justified for a person to believe that Fisher's insane, (he's delusional and paranoid) although Bin Laden appears to be rational. A complete and utter psychopath... but rational.
Point #1
Hitler's anti semitism was a way for him to scapegoat the problems of post WW1 Germany onto "others". A viewpoint that he could then exploit for political gain, by telling people their problems were caused by Jews. Ditto with the Extemists (on both sides) in the middle east today. They're basically saying "your problems are caused by [Jews, Palestinians, Sunnis, Shias, whomever], so support me and I'll make that group (and thus your problems) go away." It's extremism for political gain. It's something we see from sane people all the time in politics everywhere.
Point #2
Fischer believed the jews were out to get him. I can't say for sure that they weren't (I'm not a jew, I wouldn't know), but it doesn't seem very likely.On the other hand, Bin Laden ALSO believes the jews are out to get him... and they are. From this alone I think it's justified for a person to believe that Fisher's insane, (he's delusional and paranoid) although Bin Laden appears to be rational. A complete and utter psychopath... but rational.
From what I gather, Fischer thought the Jews had taken over the U.S., and the U.S. was definitely out to get him, or use him as an example. Fischer's brand of christianity, had the Jews being responsible for pretty much every crime in history. From killing Jesus, to lying about even the existence of the holocaust. People who are called "holocaust deniers" usually don't think the holocaust didn't take place at all, they seem to have a fixation on denying the number of Jews killed, and the ways the Jews died in concentration camps. Fischer was saying it never happened at all. I agree with another poster here who said Fischer said crazy things, but was not insane. I've seen people who start investigating history being so amazed at how deluded they were, just believing the propaganda fed to them for years without really questioning it, that they go to the other extreme, deluding themselves that everything has been a lie. Not a sign of insanity, but a little overboard.
Yes, I have heard that particular interview several times. I may not interpret it the same way you do though. Its clear to me that he was bitter and full of hatred in his last years. However, I think his anti-Americanism was more directed at the US govt rather than at ALL Americans. I could be wrong ofcourse, but that's my gut feeling. Fischer was an American and a Jew himself so perhaps he was a double self-hater ? Another poster indicated that Fischer also hated blacks, I dont know where this comes from ?
Let's also not forget what day that interview took place on. It's no excuse, by any means, but the context is important to explain the kinds of emotional triggers and polarizing events that may have predicated such an outburst.
I can tell you that I definitely heard as bad or worse from people I know against a different group on that same day and those that followed. I'm sure I'm not the only one.
Nope, you sure aren't. I wonder if all the learned folk around here realize how easy it is to find a "crazy anti-semite", or racist, or hater of the U.S. on just about any construction crew. I don't think it is about craziness so much as a limited worldview.
Its rather odd that someone who very often comes across as anti-American themself would condemn another for their anti-Americanism ....... care to explain that trysts ?