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Avatar of arthurdavidbert

Where is the satisfaction in cheating? No matter what happens you know you cheated.Cool

Avatar of SteveCollyer
Kacparov wrote:

I don't like the idea of this detector, because even engines vary, and a good move according to one engine can turn out a bad move. So such a detector may say "100% agreed", but in fact play wasn't perfect.


 Just so you know how one method of engine detection goes (and to quote another post I made in a different thread):

 

There seems to be more than a little confusion as to what parameters are used to find engine users & also how best to go about detecting possible cheats yourself.

As a user of another chess website, I have given evidence in many cases (often involving highly rated players in yearly mega-tourneys on that site) and most have since been banned.

As was pointed out earlier in this thread, the best way to detect if someone is using an engine in their games is simply to match the moves with an engine.  It ain't rocket science!

I'll give a brief resumé of the common questions & the answers you'd get from anyone who has knowledge of cheat detection methods:

 

1) What methods are used

Top 3 matchup analysis is my favoured method.  You can use other techniques such as blunder rates, but the human achievable threshold data for these hasn't been widely collected.

I do not know which methods are used on this site, but I hope it is top 3 matchup.

2) All engines are different.  Shouldn't you check on several?

The idea is to check at least 20-30+ games and then work out the averages over time.  The games need to be chosen objectively (ie last 20 games played by suspect or all games from final round(s) of a tourney) and have at least 20 moves out of book.  There may be a few differences between Rybka, Chessmaster & Fritz, but providing these are recent versions, over many games the differences should be negligable.

3) PC's have different strengths.  This could affect matchup results.

This is more important than what engine is used.  Obviously a relatively modern pc is best, allied with a modern engine such as Fritz XI.  Make sure any other programs that suck processor power from your pc are switched off during analysis.

4) Won't a top GM, if they played online, be accused of cheating?

Top human players can only get top 3 matchup results around the following in many games with 20+ moves out of book:

Top 1 match = 60%

Top 2 match = 75%

Top 3 match = 85%

chess.com may have thresholds far in excess of these, to further avoid false positives.

I analysed Fischer-Spassky '72 in full. 

Result:

Fischer

Top 1 Match: 385/658 (58,5% )

Top 2 Match: 509/658 (77,4% )

Top 3 Match: 563/658 (85,6% )

Spassky

Top 1 Match: 368/657 (56,0% )

Top 2 Match: 461/657 (70,2% )

Top 3 Match: 525/657 (79,9% )

Fischer did remarkably well, but then I understand he was a reasonably strong player. 

Other people have analysed Anand-Kramnik and Karpov-Kasparov WC games along with pre-computer era CC WC games and found similar top-end stats.

To cut a long story short, if you use the criteria I am giving you & find players getting stats close to or above these, you are either playing an undiscovered genius, a Super GM with far too much time on their hands, or an engine.  Simple.

5) Forcing lines/obvious moves/only moves should be discounted from analysis

The above figures take into account all of these criteria.  If you discount certain moves, not only do these figures need re-calculating, but the whole process becomes far too subjective and therefore less credible evidence.

6) The games could have high matchup rates because they are following obscure games from various databases

You must note when the game goes out of book on a big database such as www.chesslive.de so this is a moot point.

7) I think I am playing an engine.  What should I do?

If you are doing top 3 matchup analysis you need a modern engine, a decent pc and about 1 1/2 hours or so for each game you wish to analyse.

Choose the time you allow the engine to look at each position.  30 seconds with this method is plenty of time.  I have tried with 1 minute per move, but the analysis takes ages & the end stats are almost identical.

Find out where the game goes out of book on chesslive.de

Set up your engine to look for top 3 lines with 'infinite analysis'

Input the moves or the .PGN of the game into the engine

Go to the final move before it goes 'out of book' ie write on a jotter:

goes out on 18...Nd4

(White player name)

(19) 3 (20) 1 (21) 1 (22) N/A (23) 2
(24) 1 (25) N/A (26) 2 (27) 1 (28) 3
(29) 1 (30) 2 (31) 1 (32) 3 (33) 1
(34) N/A (35) 1 (36) 2 (37) 2 (38) 1
(39) 1 (40) 2

(Black player name)

(18) N/A (19) 1 (20) 2 (21) 2 (22) 1
(23) 1 (24) 1 (25) 2 (26) 1 (27) 1
(28) 2 (29) 1 (30) N/A (31) 2 (32) 3
(33) 1 (34) 2 (35) 1 (36) 3 (37) 3
(38) 1 (39) 1 (40) 1

Note:
'N/A' in the analysis above simply means that this move was not in engines top 3 at the 30 second point.

I actually ring the move numbers, not bracket them. I find I can fit 5 moves into each line of an average sized jotter this way.
I have found this to be the easiest & most accurate way of adding up the totals.

It's important to have the paperwork ready in advance, so you can just note down next to the move number what position your engine rates the move after precisely 30 seconds in this example, whilst keeping the computer moving along at 30 second intervals.
Once this is done & the analysis is complete, you can add the engine analysis into the .PGN & finish writing up the results.



[gid ]000000000[/ gid]
Result:
White:
Top 1 Match: 10/22 (45,5% )
Top 2 Match: 16/22 (72,7% )
Top 3 Match: 19/22 (86,4% )

Black:
Top 1 Match: 12/23 (52,2% )
Top 2 Match: 18/23 (78,3% )
Top 3 Match: 21/23 (91,3% )

If you use the top 3 / 30 second per move analysis method you must be strict in the timings & even if your move is 3rd & scores exactly the same as Fritz's top choice, you must class it as 3rd choice!

If you are sending as evidence for games mods then game ids, & the parameters under which the analysis was done are very important.
I always used to put this as a header to the analysis:

Fritz 11 @ 30 seconds per move
Pentium 4 2.93GHz 1GB RAM
Hash Table 192MB
Database used www.chesslive.de

 

Good luck!

Avatar of costelus

Lucid: don't feel so bad man! After all, if you are that good, then a GM title is a piece of cake for you (unless you already have it). Basically chess.com told you that:

1. either you cheated using an engine OR

2. you are too strong to waste your time and talent on a site crowded with patzers. You should play professionally and you should be payed to play on sites like ICC or chess.com

Avatar of SteveCollyer
FeelingBackstabbed wrote:

The other account to take into consideration is correspondence chess and OTB chess, which is not taken into account. Correspondence chess allows for more time to think, I thrive with time. During OTB games I do present myself with tougher time constraints. I am a member of the FIDE only for correspondence chess currently and have not made my leap to OTB chess until my play improves under time constraints.

there is much more to take in consierdation that I know wasn't, and with this lack of research I know this has been an injustice!!!

Lucid


 If you feel that you've been hard done by, I can analyse some of your games & give the matchup results out if you like? 

Avatar of costelus

Kepler: you also told me once about Berliner's games. I looked up one, between him and Estrin. It was indeed remarkable, but it may also be due to the fact that the opening used and the game itself were very sharp? (Two knights, Ng5). 

Avatar of SteveCollyer
Kepler wrote:

That one is a famous game in itself. However, one game is just one game and no basis for anything statistical. I analysed something like 30 games.


 Yes as mentioned in my post above, 20+ games all with 20 or more non-book moves against top quality opposition is the kind of analysis which (I hope) chess.com have used.

Also, move frequency is another key factor, as is game in progress & move order in the games in progress.

I don't have access to LucidDreams stats, but if he made several hundred moves per month in many games in progress whilst maintaining overwhelmingly high matchup %'s that is further damning evidence.

Avatar of SteveCollyer
Kepler wrote:
SteveCollyer wrote:
FeelingBackstabbed wrote:

The other account to take into consideration is correspondence chess and OTB chess, which is not taken into account. Correspondence chess allows for more time to think, I thrive with time. During OTB games I do present myself with tougher time constraints. I am a member of the FIDE only for correspondence chess currently and have not made my leap to OTB chess until my play improves under time constraints.

there is much more to take in consierdation that I know wasn't, and with this lack of research I know this has been an injustice!!!

Lucid


 If you feel that you've been hard done by, I can analyse some of your games & give the matchup results out if you like? 


If you have difficulty finding his games (I did) I can send you the whole lot as a pgn.


 Thanks.

I have found some of the games.  If you've already matchup or blunderchecked them, then there is little point in me doing analysis.  As I have said, it takes about an hour to do an average 45 move game.

Avatar of SteveCollyer

I just thought I probably can't publish the analysis because I need to have games against highly rated opponents.

This could well lead to results for the other player which can be seen as evidence of foul play & break the site TOS.

I'm not even sure if posting matchup analysis stats where both players have previously been banned is against the TOS on this site.

Maybe a moderator can advise?

Avatar of costelus

Lucid, but you are far from average. Your games here, played in OTB style as you say display an extraordinary strength. Compare your games with those of a GM (Julio Becerra). You play much better than him! It is very very strange to be so good and have no FIDE rating. On ICC you would have been banned after the first 10 games or so.

Forget about chess.com! And listen to my advice. Go to a professional chess trainer if you don't believe me. And show them your games played here. All of them will say that you have GM strength and likely they have nothing to teach you :)

Avatar of SteveCollyer
Kepler wrote:
SteveCollyer wrote:

I just thought I probably can't publish the analysis because I need to have games against highly rated opponents.

This could well lead to results for the other player which can be seen as evidence of foul play & break the site TOS.

I'm not even sure if posting matchup analysis stats where both players have previously been banned is against the TOS on this site.

Maybe a moderator can advise?


Maybe you don't need to publish, just send the results to the site staff. There are loads here compared to a certain other site and they are easily contacted.


 Can you PM me a list of the top 100 rated members on this site please?

I don't seem to be able to view player stat tables.

Avatar of ADK
Kacparov wrote:

Yes, but LucidDream was closed for cheating and, as you said, he was a menber of some trust circle, so he shouldn't have been cheating.

Another person gone is 2750+ from Italy, Nonnetruveno or something like this (sorry for misspelling).


Joining a group doesn't mean that they will follow all of the rules.

ADK

Avatar of costelus

Stevie: any game is public. You can take any game and post any analysis you want. I did it at least once, with a player banned several weeks later:

http://www.chess.com/forum/view/game-analysis/computer-game-analysis

Avatar of robson91

Pelger's account was closed because he had multiple acounts. He has an account by the name of boggyman123 and is really 20 years old

Avatar of costelus

Kepler: you analysed 30 games of Berliner? Don't you want to post your analysis in a forum topic here? It would be very interesting. You also worked too hard to do this ...

Avatar of TheOldReb

There was some suspicion that Fischer helped Berliner when he won the world correspondence championship. I have read they were friends about that time.

Avatar of Twarter369

I personally know of two high rated players here that use DB's and engines during there games. Before anyone asks I won't say who.

This is the main reason I won't pay for an account. All the great features of this site, and yet not one chess.com staff member has addressed his appeal to there system. Secondly they keep secret there methods of cheat detection, making it impossible to know how accurate or inaccurate there system is. For all we know it's a guy in a chair that flips a coin and decides that way. No, doesn't sound like an organization that I would PAY to be a member of, but it's worth what I have invested so far for sure.

Avatar of TheOldReb
Kepler wrote:

I am sure it is worthwhile but I can't view it due to not being in the US of A.


 Ditto.....

Avatar of TheOldReb

Certain ICC admins have been trying to ban me for years, why ? Cause I am an old stubborn rebel that absolutely refuses to be politically correct ! I have been "muzzled" there so many times I have lost count. I joined ICC in the spring of 1996. If lucid is banned here how is it he's here defending himself? They dont block your IP address when banned ? I dont know how it works but I thought thats what they do ?

Avatar of gumpty
Eric has stated in the past, that he doesnt ban people who he 'thinks' are cheating, he only bans people who he 'knows' are cheating. This gives a clue that in all border line cases the benfit of doubt is given. Also saying because you lost a few games to lower rated players means you didnt cheat in any games is a smoke screen....so you dropped a few games or didnt use assistance in a few to steer attention away from your playing record. As a member of COT you agree to not use databases or assistance of any kind, this makes a 2800 rating even more remarkable, as you were supposedly giving a handicap away to other similarly strengthed players and still beating them! Eric will not reveal his detection methods as obviously this would make them redundant, but i trust that if you are banned for cheating on this site, you were cheating. Maybe not in every single game, but in one or more.
Avatar of BasicDefence
Teshuvah wrote:
BasicDefence wrote:

I must say, I agree with Lucid's points.

If you're going to delete the account of anyone, notwithstanding the contributions of Lucid to this site;

- Admin of many groups

- Active promoter of chess.com

- Active TEACHER as well, teaching a variety of subjects in a human language (an action which faces far too many programming complexities for any 'computer' to be able to accomplish; there is no computer that can speak any human language fluently enough to answer any given question from a group of humans)

- A paying member of this site

Please, chess.com, if you're not going to conduct an investigation of adequate depth in the interest of ethical means, atleast do so in your own interest; this member was an important figure in the chess.com community (as well as a paying member of the chess.com community) who is depended on by many members of your site (and exterminating this member without a fairly conducted investigation may not be so well-received by many users of your site). 

If, after a PROPER investigation, this user is found to have been using computer assistance, I will rest my case.  But I think you will find that this is not so possible, due to the many things that this person did that computers are not capable of.

Regards,

BD


You don't know that a proper investigation was not done.

I sincerely doubt that one, was not.

 

Bad for business, that.


As outlined by a previous poster, a 'proper investigation' would consist of analyzing the suspected player's games.  However, if chess.com wants to be consistent and adequate, they need to review ALL games, not just a selective tidbit and/or small portion of a game.

- If you're not going to review ALL games, atleast select the games for review at random, not selectively.  That's inconsistent.

- Anybody can play at 80% consistency with Rybka for part of the game; it's called Book Moves.

Any rate, this post was made after viewing the second page of this discussion, I'll read more and probably post again in response to other posts.

Regards,

BD

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