Which Elite Chess Player of All Time Has the Most Natural Talent?

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TetsuoShima

Fact is i personally believe Fischer and Kasparov both would be extremly successful no matter what profession they would have chosen.

waffllemaster
fabelhaft wrote:
waffllemaster wrote:

Carlsen will have to hit 2950 before he achieves the same rating gap Fischer had.

Yes, but at the same time Topalov had a much bigger rating gap than Kramnik and Anand ever had taken together. Doesn't have to mean that Topalov is the most talented of the three. But talent is impossible to measure. I've read Carlsen claim that there are periods during which he doesn't think about chess at all, and Kasparov considered him lazy. Carlsen should rank somewhere up there among the most talented players, he is after all only 22 and has achieved a lot (and that without the same level of dedication as many other players).

Definitely, I agree.

I don't know who is the most talented.  As you said it's impossible to know.  But I think Fischer should be mentioned in the list.

PedoneMedio
TetsuoShima wrote:
(...)
You know absolutly nothing about Fischers private life, no1 does. There is a reason its called private.

Journalist make stories up, i know journalists personally who write for newspapers. You even see it on tv, stories about celebrities, some are often totally invented just for pr.

No1 knows Fischers private life and even if they did who knows if they are honest in the first place.

(...)

Up untill his won World Title Match, Fischer's life is quite well documented and known. You can read it in Brady's books, in particular, based on written documents and accounts directly taken by the writer from first hand witnesses (when he himself is not the direct witness).

If you mean nobody can be sure about what Fischer did in his private appartment, where he lived alone from the age sixteen, that is also true for anybody else, really, since we all have some time in private in our life, and studying Chess is at least partially done alone by everybody.

On the other hand, nothing about Fischer's life which might have happened after 1972 is relevant for this thread's topic.

schlechter55
TetsuoShima wrote:

Schlechter did you even read anything about chess history?? It was the other way around. Chess players were treated like stars in soviet union and got paid, Fischer got no money from the us government. He even had to waste his time to play simuls to have enough money.

You are just arrogant and igmorant. 

From my many therads you know that I lived in Soviet Union. You must also know that I know more than you about chess which includes its history.

 Have you ever been in Russia or any of the parts of former Soviet Union, at least after 1991 ? Then you would know that life in Soviet Union was not easy. Many players (including most GMs) lived in a small apartment, did not have a car, not few in the big cities had to share a kitchen with other families.

Travel even to other socialist countries was rare, even the SuperGMs who got invitations to tournaments in the West, depended on a decision of the Sport Committee in Moscow (many requests for such travels were declined , even for players like Bronstein, Boleslavski, Spasski etc...). The salary for a GM was not great, too. The only thing of what you say that is true is, that strong players (IMs or high-rated players) could work as a trainer in a Chess club, or as a chess teacher in one of the the 'Pioneer's Palaces'. Again, only this gave them a financially safe situation, but in the overwhelming number of cases it did not make them a rich person (rich from the point of view of western lifestyle).

So the advantage that soviet chess players had compared to the westerners was two-fold:

1. Receiving attention and respect by a big part of the people - chess players were considered as artists and scientists at the same time.

2. Being part of a large and vibrant  chess community where one would have lots of creative impulses.

Coming back to Fischer: he played countless tournaments within the US and abroad before he reached his strongest shape in the seventieth.

A freedom that no Soviet player ever enjoyed.

fabelhaft
TetsuoShima wrote:

If you think Kasparov is better ok, say you think he is better, but base it on facts, not on your own assumptions.

You simply stated that there is "no doubt" that Fischer was the greatest talent ever, I guess that is plain facts instead of assumptions. :-) I don't claim that Kasparov was "better", I just pointed out some differences between the two with regards to their interests.

TetsuoShima
fabelhaft wrote:
TetsuoShima wrote:

If you think Kasparov is better ok, say you think he is better, but base it on facts, not on your own assumptions.

You simply stated that there is "no doubt" that Fischer was the greatest talent ever, I guess that is plain facts instead of assumptions. :-) I don't claim that Kasparov was "better", I just pointed out some differences between the two with regards to their interests.


no kidding sometimes i really forget what i wrote myself. Good point, you are a very good listener ;)

schlechter55

Tootsie, you also (deliberately) forget what other people have already explained, lol.  

TetsuoShima
schlechter55 wrote:
TetsuoShima wrote:

Schlechter did you even read anything about chess history?? It was the other way around. Chess players were treated like stars in soviet union and got paid, Fischer got no money from the us government. He even had to waste his time to play simuls to have enough money.

You are just arrogant and igmorant. 

From my many therads you know that I lived in Soviet Union. You must also know that I know more than you about chess which includes its history.

 Have you ever been in Russia or any of the parts of former Soviet Union, at least after 1991 ? Then you would know that life in Soviet Union was not easy. Many players (including most GMs) lived in a small apartment, did not have a car, not few in the big cities had to share a kitchen with other families.

Travel even to other socialist countries was rare, even the SuperGMs who got invitations to tournaments in the West, depended on a decision of the Sport Committee in Moscow (many requests for such travels were declined , even for players like Bronstein, Boleslavski, Spasski etc...). The salary for a GM was not great, too. The only thing of what you say that is true is, that strong players (IMs or high-rated players) could work as a trainer in a Chess club, or as a chess teacher in one of the the 'Pioneer's Palaces'. Again, only this gave them a financially safe situation, but in the overwhelming number of cases it did not make them a rich person (rich from the point of view of western lifestyle).

So the advantage that soviet chess players had compared to the westerners was two-fold:

1. Receiving attention and respect by a big part of the people - chess players were considered as artists and scientists at the same time.

2. Being part of a large and vibrant  chess community where one would have lots of creative impulses.

Coming back to Fischer: he played countless tournaments within the US and abroad before he reached his strongest shape in the seventieth.

A freedom that no Soviet player ever enjoyed.

I dont know what 1991 has to do with anything, but as i read travel was ok and allowed, even Kasparov mentioned it in an interview.

Even many russians at Botvinnik time said travel was allowed, only not for those who Botvinnik disliked (according to some statements)

Many travelled  inside soviet union, because they probably all had to travel to the all soviet championship.

Bronstein even in his book mentioned how many things he always brought home from frequent trips to foreign countries, especially his frequent visits to holland.

Korchnoi and others (i believe it was Korchnoi) even gave Bronstein advise on what he should buy when he is outside of soviet union.

Apparently for soviet standard chessplayers were rich.

TetsuoShima

not to mention how often Tal was abroad, Tals trips were famous, Schlechter you totally made everything up.

No wonder pfren doesnt want to talk to you.

PedoneMedio

Well, if you belive that a world class GM asking another one to bring something home from the other side of the iron curtain is a signal of how free were all them to travel the world, and of how rich were they all, what can one say to you, then?

Have a nice day, and good luck!

TetsuoShima
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TetsuoShima

compared to other soviet citizen they were like gods for sure

Urthor

J R Capablanca

Stormstout
Wumbologist wrote:

J R Capablanca

fabelhaft

So which top player of all time had the least natural talent then? Korchnoi?

ChessAcademyHQ

Capablanca, Sultan Khan, Morphy, Anand. Carlsen, too, I think. 

kevsha77

Capablanca (the machine) He would enter a won endgame and leave you wondering where in the middle game that it took place or play the endgame like a violin with a couple of extra strings. 

TetsuoShima
kevsha77 wrote:

Capablanca (the machine) He would enter a won endgame and leave you wondering where in the middle game that it took place or play the endgame like a violin with a couple of extra strings. 

there is a famous interview by Bobby Fischer where he said Capablanca made idiotic statements, like from here i played the endgame perfectly what according to Bobby Fischer he didnt.

Also he mentioned how weak players mentioned that Capablanca always found the right moves in seconds, even though they even were to weak to know what the right move was (ofc i dont mean Botvinnik)

TetsuoShima
Victor-Servranckx wrote:

TetsuoShima wrote:

Fact is i personally believe Fischer and Kasparov both would be extremly successful no matter what profession they would have chosen.

 

Really? Like butcher, plummer or garbage collector?

no like event abitrage investor like Andy Beal, like Buy out company i forget the name, the ones that buy companies with credit and then sell it to the public with 100 million profit to every partner of the firm..

like stock trader or stuff like that.


 

Crazychessplaya
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