Who is the greatest chess player of all time ?? Bobby Fischer ?? - Chess Forums - Page 29

fabelhaft

Apr 27, 2016

0

#561

Yes, strongest ever only Kasparov might compete with Carlsen for, I think.

SmyslovFan

Apr 27, 2016

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#562

Carlsen's current live rating is once again higher than Kasparov's highest ever rating. The pack in #2-15 is less than 50 rating points apart. Carlsen is more than 50 rating points ahead of the pack.

I know, there will be people who say that ratings are inflated. There are fewer players rated +2700 than there were a few years ago. Statisticians such as Kenneth Regan have found no evidence of rating inflation.

Kasparov is the only player in history who could have given Carlsen a consistent challenge, and he probably would have lost in the long run too.

fabelhaft

Apr 27, 2016

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#563

I think Carlsen on average has had a bigger distance to #2 than Kasparov had even if that one should be close and Kasparov maintained it for another decade and more. But chess today is on a slightly higher level than it was when Kasparov peaked 15-30 years ago.

SmyslovFan

Apr 27, 2016

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#564

Kasparov had a larger gap from #1-#3 though. Kasparov was fortunate to have Karpov as a duelling partner, but it makes the distance from 1-2 smaller.

fabelhaft

Apr 27, 2016

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#565

Yes, and already getting difficult to avoid having Carlsen top 5 also on the greatest ever lists. Consistently being around 50 Elo ahead of the opposition as the chess world looks today, and win tournament after tournament like this is very impressive. +17-0=25 in his last 42 games now, almost all of them against the strongest possible opposition.

SaintGermain32105

Apr 27, 2016

0

#566

Reb wrote:

SaintGermain32105 wrote:

Tal lost many games to Keres and Petrosian, during the period he was intimidating guys like Fischer, and to add insult to injury like a patzer.

Tal beat a 15 yo Fischer 4-0 in one event and never managed to beat him again ... big deal .

Yes, Tal was very ill in Curacao. Nevertheless my opinion regarding Keres does not change, he was overall very unlucky not to become world champion.

fabelhaft

Apr 27, 2016

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#567

About Keres one could maybe say that from 1938 to 1968 there was no time when he was clearly weaker than the reigning World Champion.

fabelhaft

Apr 27, 2016

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#568

One might even extend that to 35 years and pick 1936-71, but that is probably to stretch it with regards to Spassky the last of those years.

NM Reb

Apr 28, 2016

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#569

SmyslovFan wrote:

Carlsen's current live rating is once again higher than Kasparov's highest ever rating. The pack in #2-15 is less than 50 rating points apart. Carlsen is more than 50 rating points ahead of the pack.

I know, there will be people who say that ratings are inflated. There are fewer players rated +2700 than there were a few years ago. Statisticians such as Kenneth Regan have found no evidence of rating inflation.

Kasparov is the only player in history who could have given Carlsen a consistent challenge, and he probably would have lost in the long run too.

And Fischer was more than 100 points ahead of the pack !

SmyslovFan

Apr 28, 2016

0

#570

Reb, even you might agree that the pack is stronger today than it was in 1972.

NM Reb

Apr 28, 2016

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#571

SmyslovFan wrote:

Reb, even you might agree that the pack is stronger today than it was in 1972.

I dont put the same faith in ratings as you do so I am not as certain as you seem to be that that is the case . I certainly do not believe that every 2700+ player today is better than Spassky was at his peak and he never broke 2700 . You dont believe rating inflation exists , I do . We both have our reasons for being on opposite sides of the fence .

SmyslovFan

Apr 28, 2016

0

#572

Are you really, really saying that you believe the top 15 in 1972 were as strong as the top 15 today? I'll use the July 1973 rating list because it's more favorable for the old guys.

Standard Top 100 Players April 2016

Rank	Name	Title	Country	Rating	Games	B-Year
1	Carlsen, Magnus	g	NOR	2851	0	1990
2	Kramnik, Vladimir	g	RUS	2801	0	1975
3	Caruana, Fabiano	g	USA	2795	14	1992
4	Giri, Anish	g	NED	2790	14	1994
5	Vachier-Lagrave, Maxime	g	FRA	2788	1	1990
6	Nakamura, Hikaru	g	USA	2787	14	1987
7	Aronian, Levon	g	ARM	2784	14	1982
8	Karjakin, Sergey	g	RUS	2779	14	1990
9	Ding, Liren	g	CHN	2777	0	1992
10	So, Wesley	g	USA	2773	0	1993
11	Anand, Viswanathan	g	IND	2770	14	1969
12	Eljanov, Pavel	g	UKR	2765	0	1983
13	Harikrishna, P.	g	IND	2763	2	1986
14	Svidler, Peter	g	RUS	2762	14	1976
15	Li, Chao b	g	CHN	2755	9	1989

vs:

July 1973 - FIDE Rating List

1. Fischer, Robert James g USA : 2780
2. Karpov, Anatoly g URS : 2660
. . Tal, Mikhail N. g URS : 2660
4. Spassky, Boris V. g URS : 2655
5. Portisch, Lajos g HUN : 2650
. . Korchnoi, Viktor g URS : 2650
7. Petrosian, Tigran g URS : 2640
8. Botvinnik, Mikhail g URS : 2630
9. Polugaevsky, Lev g URS : 2625
10. Larsen, Bent g DEN : 2620
11. Smyslov, Vassily g URS : 2610
12. Geller, Efim P. g URS : 2605
.. . Stein, Leonid g URS : 2605
.. . Byrne, Robert E. g USA : 2605
15. Huebner, Robert g GER : 2600

SmyslovFan

Apr 28, 2016

0

#573

Btw, there would be some fun matches there. Reb probably thinks an old, semi-retired Botvinnik could take Naka.

My only stipulation is that the games be played under modern rules, with no adjournments.

NM Reb

Apr 28, 2016

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#574

You dont allow for inflation SF because you dont believe it exists , but I do which makes the old guys much more comparable in strength . In any case they certainly fought more than the young crop and you didnt see as many short draws then as today .

SaintGermain32105

Apr 28, 2016

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#575

Larsen's peak rating was 2660 in 1971, Keres had 2615, Fischer's peak was 2785 in 1972, Petrosian's was 2645, Spassky had 2690 in 1971, Karpov's was 2780 back in 1994, Korchnoi had 2695 in 1979.

However, it does not show their strenght, only that some of them played at the time more tournaments. Later on the number of titled players increased so that it was enough to play a single tournament to match the gains of two tournaments from the past.

fabelhaft

Apr 28, 2016

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#576

"they certainly fought more than the young crop and you didnt see as many short draws then as today"

Are you sure about that? Compare the number of short draws played by Tal and Spassky with those of Carlsen...

fabelhaft

Apr 28, 2016

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#577

The last dozen years Carlsen had 0 draws in 15 moves or less, while both Spassky and Tal had at least 170 each over their careers.

SaintGermain32105

Apr 28, 2016

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#578

Arpad Elo in 1960 and further elaborated on in his 1978 book The Rating of Chessplayers, Past and Present, gave ratings to players corresponding to their performance over the best five-year span of their career. According to this system the highest ratings achieved were:

2725: José Raúl Capablanca
2720: Mikhail Botvinnik, Emanuel Lasker
2700: Mikhail Tal
2690: Alexander Alekhine, Paul Morphy, Vasily Smyslov.

But it's obvious to me that the rating system is not to be blindly trusted.

fabelhaft

Apr 29, 2016

0

#579

Elo's 1978 estimates of players of the past seem to have little solid foundation. Also giving an average of the five best years is quite different from the peak rating usually being discussed later.

Peak ratings and distances are of course also to be taken with several pinches of salt. Is it for example obvious that Topalov is greater than Anand and Kramnik because he had a bigger distance to #2, higher peak rating and longer time as #1?

SaintGermain32105

Apr 29, 2016

0

#580

fabelhaft wrote:

Elo's 1978 estimates of players of the past seem to have little solid foundation. Also giving an average of the five best years is quite different from the peak rating usually being discussed later.

Peak ratings and distances are of course also to be taken with several pinches of salt. Is it for example obvious that Topalov is greater than Anand and Kramnik because he had a bigger distance to #2, higher peak rating and longer time as #1?

The reason why some players got beaten bad in matches despite their high rating, is because some of them were more of a tournament player, and since matches between players are not organized as frequently as the number of tournaments, the rating system can not give a reasonable assesment of player's strength. It would be interesting to see the frequency of 2600 plus players beaten by much weaker opponents in modern times and in the past.