Who is the greatest chess player of all time ?? Bobby Fischer ??

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rodash08
alinfe wrote:
FM_Checkmate wrote:

Carlsen is the best. If you go to any website, you can compare ratings. I compared and it said that Carlsen has a higher rating, not higher than just Fischer, but higher than anybody else in the whole entire world.

What that website didn't tell you is that ratings suffer from inflation over time (especially the rating of top players). Look no further than Viktor Korchnoi. He achieved his peak rating of 2695 in 1979 (age 48). Twenty eight years later he had dropped by merely 66 points. Ask yourself this: what's more likely, that a 76 years old guy (even one as good as Korchnoi was) is nearly as strong as he was in his prime, or that ratings inflate over time? Another telling example: Karpov achieved his peak rating in 1994, nearly 10 years after losing the title, and well past the age when most players reach their prime (43).

So yeah Fischer 1972 rating was pretty astronomical. So much so that it took 20 years for somebody to surpass it, even with the help of rating inflation.

 

fabelhaft wrote:

To me Kasparov and Lasker are the only serious candidates, while Fischer disqualified himself from the discussion by quitting already in his 20s after one title match (and that against one of the "minor" World Champions).

I think we need to distinguish between the most consistent/having the longest career and the strongest. One guy can be the fastest man on the panet for one year, and another can be a split second slower for 10 years. That still doesn't make the latter better than the former, strictly speaking. It's true that Fischer gave up chess voluntarily, but what if he died in a car crash at age 30, would that still disqualify him in your eyes? Heck, Paul Morphy is another contender and never even became world champion.

GoranRC
rodash08 wrote:
alinfe wrote:
FM_Checkmate wrote:

Carlsen is the best. If you go to any website, you can compare ratings. I compared and it said that Carlsen has a higher rating, not higher than just Fischer, but higher than anybody else in the whole entire world.

What that website didn't tell you is that ratings suffer from inflation over time (especially the rating of top players). Look no further than Viktor Korchnoi. He achieved his peak rating of 2695 in 1979 (age 48). Twenty eight years later he had dropped by merely 66 points. Ask yourself this: what's more likely, that a 76 years old guy (even one as good as Korchnoi was) is nearly as strong as he was in his prime, or that ratings inflate over time? Another telling example: Karpov achieved his peak rating in 1994, nearly 10 years after losing the title, and well past the age when most players reach their prime (43).

So yeah Fischer 1972 rating was pretty astronomical. So much so that it took 20 years for somebody to surpass it, even with the help of rating inflation.

 

fabelhaft wrote:

To me Kasparov and Lasker are the only serious candidates, while Fischer disqualified himself from the discussion by quitting already in his 20s after one title match (and that against one of the "minor" World Champions).

I think we need to distinguish between the most consistent/having the longest career and the strongest. One guy can be the fastest man on the panet for one year, and another can be a split second slower for 10 years. That still doesn't make the latter better than the former, strictly speaking. It's true that Fischer gave up chess voluntarily, but what if he died in a car crash at age 30, would that still disqualify him in your eyes? Heck, Paul Morphy is another contender and never even became world champion.

 

I'm curious why Carlsen's name isn't mentioned? - He is by far the highest rated player of all time. - He still holds that record and is an OUTSTANDING player. - I don't believe Fischer, or especially Viktor are better.

SmyslovFan

The issue of "greatness" is separate from being the best. 

Clearly, Usain Bolt is the fastest sprinter ever. His claim to greatness is his dominance in three Olympiads. But one could easily make the argument that Jesse Owens faced much tougher obstacles and excelled in such a way that he could be considered the greatest ever. 

If you remove the indisputable (time in the case of sprinters), it becomes much more interesting. Nobody argues that Owens would be able to defeat Bolt in a sprint. Nobody argues that a clean Carl Lewis (which doesn't exist) could beat Bolt at his best. But it is possible to argue about their relative accomplishments. 

The same goes with chess. If you were to say that Fischer's accomplishments are mind-blowing, and his undefeated streak is really impressive, that's fine! If you were to say that Fischer revolutionized the profession of chess, I'd agree wholeheartedly. If you were to talk about how Fischer played wonderfully "correct" chess as white while mixing things up and playing almost in a completely different style as Black, I'd agree that he was remarkable in this respect. 

If you were to diss today's players by pretending that someone, anyone from the 1970s was better than the best players today, I'd point to the indisputable (ratings, engine match-up rates, opening choices, endgame knowledge, faster time controls, and so on) to show how today's top players really are on a par with, and occasionally better than Fischer. 

But those are two separate arguments: Fischer was one of the greatest ever. One could reasonably argue he was the greatest ever based on the legend that has built up around him. But Karpov reached the same rating level as he did and Kasparov exceeded his best by a substantial margin. There really should be no debate over who would be expected to win a match. (And yes, you then get people arguing that if Fischer were allowed the tools of today... That kind of proves the point that there is no argument.)

JeffGreen333
Rsava wrote:

Above it is stated that Fischer did not use seconds. I thought Larry Evans was his second in his matches with Petrosian and Larsen and then used Lombardy (his longtime coach) in the match with Spassky.

According to Wikipedia, Larry Evans was his second at a big tournament in Belgrade in March/April 1970.   As for the 1971 Candidates match, it says this ..... "Taimanov came to Vancouver with two seconds, both grandmasters.  Fischer was alone.  He thought that the sight of Taimanov and his seconds was the funniest thing he had ever seen ....... Fischer beat Taimanov by the score of 6–0. ".   It doesn't say whether he used a second for Larsen, Petrosian or Spassky, but I assumed not, since he didn't use one in the Taimanov match.  He did have a physical trainer though, I believe.  

JeffGreen333
GoranRC wrote: 

I'm curious why Carlsen's name isn't mentioned? - He is by far the highest rated player of all time. - He still holds that record and is an OUTSTANDING player. - I don't believe Fischer, or especially Viktor are better.

Carlsen's name has been mentioned, several times.   You haven't read the entire thread, apparently.   My opinion about Carlsen is that he is too young and hasn't suffered the inevitable decline due to old age yet.  So, we may or may not have seen his peak yet and we don't know how motovated he'll be to keep improving, after he's already won a WC or two.   Also, there's the ratings inflation issue.  I personally think the all-time rankings should be 1. Fischer (at his 1970-72 peak)  2. Kasparov (best over the span of his entire career)  3. Carlsen (most computer-like player of all-time and could possibly be the best, after it's all said and done)   4. Morphy   5. Capablanca.  But that's just my opinion and everybody has one.  You know the rest.   lol

Yellow_panther

fischer was greatest chess player of all time because whenever i analyse his games with engines 80 % of moves played by fischer is also preffered by modern engines, I also analyse games of carlsen ,kasparove ,kramanik but i found that less than 50% moves played by these player is actually preffered by engines...........so how this possible how fisher managed to play like a todays top chess engines without using or practicing with any chess engines ever.todays top grandmasters practices with engines and they want to play engines preffered moves but they can"t able do that all the times .......But fischer was amazing he had the ability to beat any chess player by using his own chess engine which is his brain.....no doubt that he is the greatest no 1 chess player of all time..

SmyslovFan

Yup, I'd definitely believe someone who can't even spell the players' names over professional statisticians such as Kenneth Regan.

fabelhaft

"It's true that Fischer gave up chess voluntarily, but what if he died in a car crash at age 30, would that still disqualify him in your eyes?"

Yes, it's only the actual results that count as I see it, Pillsbury doesn't become greater because he died young and Tal doesn't become less great because he didn't die in 1960. With Fischer we have a player that stopped playing in his 20s without ever defending the title, winning more than a few international tournaments, still having a total career minus against the group Geller, Tal, Korchnoi, Petrosian, Spassky, etc. It's just not comparable to for example Lasker winning every event for thirty years after winning the title except one where he was second, Kasparov being number one for twenty years after winning the title etc.

chessspy1

In most professional sports there is one man who changes the old system and introduces a new and better one. Ali in boxing for example. Fisher is the one who changed chess forever.

FM_Checkmate
JeffGreen333 wrote:
GoranRC wrote: 

I'm curious why Carlsen's name isn't mentioned? - He is by far the highest rated player of all time. - He still holds that record and is an OUTSTANDING player. - I don't believe Fischer, or especially Viktor are better.

Carlsen's name has been mentioned, several times.   You haven't read the entire thread, apparently.   My opinion about Carlsen is that he is too young and hasn't suffered the inevitable decline due to old age yet.  So, we may or may not have seen his peak yet and we don't know how motovated he'll be to keep improving, after he's already won a WC or two.   Also, there's the ratings inflation issue.  I personally think the all-time rankings should be 1. Fischer (at his 1970-72 peak)  2. Kasparov (best over the span of his entire career)  3. Carlsen (most computer-like player of all-time and could possibly be the best, after it's all said and done)   4. Morphy   5. Capablanca.  But that's just my opinion and everybody has one.  You know the rest.   lol

Look. Carlsen is only 25. So he's quite amazing. Fischer started when he was older. So I still believe Carlsen is the best.

SpiritoftheVictory

Fischer is one of the greatest ever, certainly the best of his time. His place in the history of chess is secure. However, there's no such a thing as the best of all times. You may do all the statistical or other sorts of analyses, count this or that factor, but there's no way to know for sure. Let the great Fischer RIP.

FM_Checkmate
SpiritoftheVictory wrote:

Fischer is one of the greatest ever, certainly the best of his time. His place in the history of chess is secure. However, there's no such a thing as the best of all times. You may do all the statistical or other sorts of analyses, count this or that factor, but there's no way to know for sure. Let the great Fischer RIP.

That is true. If you read my comment above yours, I think you'll see what I mean.

mdinnerspace1

For longevity and quality of play there is no debate . 

THE  Turk

mdinnerspace1

The Turk began its European tour in 1783, beginning with an appearance in France in April. A stop at Versailles preceded an exhibition in Paris, where the Turk lost a match to Charles Godefroy de La Tour d'Auvergne, the Duc de Bouillon. Upon arrival in Paris in May 1783, it was displayed to the public and played a variety of opponents, including a lawyer named Mr. Bernard who was a second rank in chess ability.[30] Following the sessions at Versailles, demands increased for a match with François-André Danican Philidor, who was considered the best chess player of his time.[31] Moving to the Café de la Régence, the machine played many of the most skilled players, often losing (e.g. against Bernard and Verdoni),[32] until securing a match with Philidor at the Académie des Sciences. While Philidor won his match with the Turk, Philidor's son noted that his father called it "his most fatiguing game of chess ever!"[33] The Turk's final game in Paris was against Benjamin Franklin, who was serving as ambassador to France from the United States. Franklin reportedly enjoyed the game with the Turk and was interested in the machine for the rest of his life.

JeffGreen333
FM_Checkmate wrote:
JeffGreen333 wrote:
GoranRC wrote: 

I'm curious why Carlsen's name isn't mentioned? - He is by far the highest rated player of all time. - He still holds that record and is an OUTSTANDING player. - I don't believe Fischer, or especially Viktor are better.

Carlsen's name has been mentioned, several times.   You haven't read the entire thread, apparently.   My opinion about Carlsen is that he is too young and hasn't suffered the inevitable decline due to old age yet.  So, we may or may not have seen his peak yet and we don't know how motivated he'll be to keep improving, after he's already won a WC or two.   Also, there's the ratings inflation issue.  I personally think the all-time rankings should be 1. Fischer (at his 1970-72 peak)  2. Kasparov (best over the span of his entire career)  3. Carlsen (most computer-like player of all-time and could possibly be the best, after it's all said and done)   4. Morphy   5. Capablanca.  But that's just my opinion and everybody has one.  You know the rest.   lol

Look. Carlsen is only 25. So he's quite amazing. Fischer started when he was older. So I still believe Carlsen is the best.

That doesn't make any sense.  lol   If Fischer started when he was older, then that would make him more naturally talented.   Getting an early start is a huge advantage.   

JeffGreen333
mdinnerspace1 wrote:

The Turk began its European tour in 1783, beginning with an appearance in France in April. A stop at Versailles preceded an exhibition in Paris, where the Turk lost a match to Charles Godefroy de La Tour d'Auvergne, the Duc de Bouillon. Upon arrival in Paris in May 1783, it was displayed to the public and played a variety of opponents, including a lawyer named Mr. Bernard who was a second rank in chess ability.[30] Following the sessions at Versailles, demands increased for a match with François-André Danican Philidor, who was considered the best chess player of his time.[31] Moving to the Café de la Régence, the machine played many of the most skilled players, often losing (e.g. against Bernard and Verdoni),[32] until securing a match with Philidor at the Académie des Sciences. While Philidor won his match with the Turk, Philidor's son noted that his father called it "his most fatiguing game of chess ever!"[33] The Turk's final game in Paris was against Benjamin Franklin, who was serving as ambassador to France from the United States. Franklin reportedly enjoyed the game with the Turk and was interested in the machine for the rest of his life.

I read a fascinating book about "The Turk" once.   There was actually a midget inside of the box, who was making the moves.   All of the gears and moving parts were just for show, to convince everyone that it was a machine that was playing.   

mdinnerspace1

A few great players were actually hired to play from inside the "box". They had to be of a small stature. The Turk lost very few games in one stretch when the the owner had funds to pay. Beat All comers. If memory serves correct, Pillsbury served a stint. Please don't hold me to that. Research of the Turk is very interesting and makes for great stories.

mdinnerspace1

Wasn't necessary to be a midget, but small in stature. Those that spent up to 8 hours in the box spoke of the physical demands and discomforts. Part of it was to present the illusion of a mechanical machine, not possible for someone to be inside.

Rsava
JeffGreen333 wrote:
Rsava wrote:

Above it is stated that Fischer did not use seconds. I thought Larry Evans was his second in his matches with Petrosian and Larsen and then used Lombardy (his longtime coach) in the match with Spassky.

According to Wikipedia, Larry Evans was his second at a big tournament in Belgrade in March/April 1970.   As for the 1971 Candidates match, it says this ..... "Taimanov came to Vancouver with two seconds, both grandmasters.  Fischer was alone.  He thought that the sight of Taimanov and his seconds was the funniest thing he had ever seen ....... Fischer beat Taimanov by the score of 6–0. ".   It doesn't say whether he used a second for Larsen, Petrosian or Spassky, but I assumed not, since he didn't use one in the Taimanov match.  He did have a physical trainer though, I believe.  

Weird, 'cause here is a Wikipedia article that says he did use one for Larsen and Petrosian. Then used Lombardy for the WC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Lombardy#1972_Spassky-Fischer_World_Championship_Match

Guess that just goes to show that the teachers are right, don't use Wikipedia for references.

An article by Lubomir Kavalek in New In Chess, June 2012 has this to say:

‘It was during this game [the 13th] that I started working with Bobby on the adjournment games after he sent his official second, Bill Lombardy, away from his suite. Bobby and Bill were a great pair, but during that night they turned into two strong personalities with two different opinions. The tension was resolved by Lombardy’s sneeze. “I don’t want to get your cold, Bill”, Bobby said and added he wanted to work with me. Bill left quietly.

From that moment on, I analysed just with Bobby till the end of the match.’

 

 

JeffGreen333
Rsava wrote:
JeffGreen333 wrote:
Rsava wrote:

Above it is stated that Fischer did not use seconds. I thought Larry Evans was his second in his matches with Petrosian and Larsen and then used Lombardy (his longtime coach) in the match with Spassky.

According to Wikipedia, Larry Evans was his second at a big tournament in Belgrade in March/April 1970.   As for the 1971 Candidates match, it says this ..... "Taimanov came to Vancouver with two seconds, both grandmasters.  Fischer was alone.  He thought that the sight of Taimanov and his seconds was the funniest thing he had ever seen ....... Fischer beat Taimanov by the score of 6–0. ".   It doesn't say whether he used a second for Larsen, Petrosian or Spassky, but I assumed not, since he didn't use one in the Taimanov match.  He did have a physical trainer though, I believe.  

Weird, 'cause here is a Wikipedia article that says he did use one for Larsen and Petrosian. Then used Lombardy for the WC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Lombardy#1972_Spassky-Fischer_World_Championship_Match

Guess that just goes to show that the teachers are right, don't use Wikipedia for references.

An article by Lubomir Kavalek in New In Chess, June 2012 has this to say:

‘It was during this game [the 13th] that I started working with Bobby on the adjournment games after he sent his official second, Bill Lombardy, away from his suite. Bobby and Bill were a great pair, but during that night they turned into two strong personalities with two different opinions. The tension was resolved by Lombardy’s sneeze. “I don’t want to get your cold, Bill”, Bobby said and added he wanted to work with me. Bill left quietly.

From that moment on, I analysed just with Bobby till the end of the match.’

Ok, I stand corrected.  I didn't look up Lombardy's Wiki.   Nice find.