Who is the greatest chess player of all time ?? Bobby Fischer ??

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SmyslovFan
alinfe wrote:
SmyslovFan wrote:

The great thing about retiring early without facing the first challenger is that people can believe whatever they want, regardless of the evidence. 

 

True, and sadly that works both ways, i.e. it gives detractors an excuse to come up with rubbish theories.

 

SmyslovFan wrote:

Karpov beat Spassky more comprehensively than Fischer did.* That's a scary proposition. 

 

If less than one percent difference (2 years later and after the crushing loss of the crown) is "more comprehensive" in your mind, then have it.

 

SmyslovFan wrote:

Then, Karpov was leading his match against Korchnoi 3-0 before tiring to finish the match 3-2. 

 

since when do half-matches started to count towards anything? 

 

SmyslovFan wrote:

Karpov was a serious challenger, the like of which Fischer never faced. 

There's no way he would have lost 13 in a 24 game match. 

 

Or was it the other way around, i.e. Fischer was a challenge the likes of which Karpov had never met? You seem to forget the fact that he defeated Korchnoi (another member of the "generation defeated by Fischer" as Korchnoi himself put it) by the narrowest margin possible. 

 

SmyslovFan wrote:

Karpov didn't lose ten games in a year at that time. There's no way he would have lost 13 in a 24 game match. (Your flag is showing.)

Fischer knew this. He made certain claims about why he wouldn't play in 1975, but he kept changing his stated conditions in later meetings, until both Karpov and Campomanes (the FIDE president who organized the secret meetings) acknowledged Fischer didn't want to play.

 

All of this has already been extensively covered elsewhere, see the "Why Fischer didn't play Karpov" thread. Honestly I don't know why you keep regurgitating cliches. I begin to suspect it's bad faith, not lack of knowledge, since even when certain facts are pointed out to you you keep ignoring them. 

It's a fact - if you even bother looking at the 1975 WCC chronology - that Fischer send FIDE his list of proposals in late 73, well before Karpov emerged as his challenger.

By this time Karpov was clearly a rising star and the leader of a new generation, but he wasn't quite yet Karpov we know today. By this time Karpov tied for 1st place at the Leningrad interzonal with Korchnoi. He clearly showed he was on par with the upper echelon, but not that he could yet dominate them.

It's a fact that Fischer formally resigned his title before Karpov clearly emerged as the challenger.

Whether you accept this or not, that doesn't change the facts. Or history.

You are insulting and wrong, even on math. Work out what 4 wins, 1 loss and 6 draws is as a per cent, then work out what 5 wins, 3 losses and 3 draws is. 

If we can't even agree on math, there's no point in having a conversation.

 

You failed to be persuasive in previous threads, and you claim now that you "proved" your point previously. Restating your thesis without proving it isn't evidence.

Redlynx17
jambyvedar wrote:
Redlynx17 wrote:
DjonniDerevnja wrote:
Redlynx17 wrote:

 

The precision and energy that he played with is just unmatched in the history of chess. So Bobby Fischer from 1970 to 1972." - On his dream rival Carlsen CNN 2015

 

About Fisher unmatched in history of chess. What about Carlsen?  I think Carlsen has harder competition than Fischer had. Caruana, So, Kasparov, Nakamura, Aronian are all fantastic players. I guess that nr 10 today is stronger than number 5 was back in the seventies.

 

Carlsen is a rare talent. I would put him in the same realm with Fischer, Kasparov etc. As for Carlsen facing harder competition. It's true, but players these days have chess engines, databases. And most importantly, Carlsen was mentored by one of the GOAT players AKA Kasparov. Same goes for Kasparov who had Top GM's and theoreticians working for him.

 

Fischer had no such luxury and still rekt the entire soviet union. At his peak he is just a better player than anyone in history. I would bet if 72' Fischer had Stockfish he would've cried with happiness. In addition, his maniacal dedication and superhuman focus would've allowed him to continue study until he beat everyone.

 

You are mentioning that players today uses engine and Fischer does not have that luxury. But Fischer's opponents also does not have an engine. Fischer at 1972 being better than anyone in history is your opinion.

 

No idea what you're insinuating. You said Fischer's opponents didn't have chess engine (pretty obvious), but you forgot to state that Fischer's opponents had teams of Top GM's and theoreticians working. There were I believe 35 GM's helping Spassky. Kasparov and Karpov received the same treatment. All these special privileges and yet they couldn't dominate their peers, while Fischer single-handedly rekt everyone with a large margin. Sad really !!

 

I know who I would pick with equal resources and time. Actually I might pick Morphy in that case.

JeffGreen333

Yeah, Morphy is in my top 3 G.O.A.T. right behind Fischer and Kasparov.  I have Carlsen at #5, I think.   

alinfe
SmyslovFan wrote:

You are insulting and wrong, even on math. Work out what 4 wins, 1 loss and 6 draws is as a per cent, then work out what 5 wins, 3 losses and 3 draws is.If we can't even agree on math, there's no point in having a conversation.

 

You failed to be persuasive in previous threads, and you claim now that you "proved" your point previously. Restating your thesis without proving it isn't evidence.

First thing first...

Fischer - Spassky, WCC (1972) - 12.5/20 = 62.5%

Karpov - Spassky, Candidates Semifinal (1974) - 7/11 = 63.6%

_____________________________________________________________________

Winning percentage difference 63.6%-62.5%=1.1% 

You are right, if we can't even agree on basic math and historical facts, there's no point in even attempting to engage in a debate!

Second, it's neither insulting or wrong to point out that you persistently gloss over facts in order to smear Fischer's reputation. Just like you glossed over most of my arguments, mainly because you can't refute them, and you know it. 

P.S. And by the way, I don't need to persuade you regarding facts. It takes a few mouse clicks if one is really interested in learning the truth. If on the other hand one is interested in disinformation and passing one's own speculations as truths/certainties, then I guess it's very convenient to ignore facts or live in a parallel universe. 

warunz
I think Vishy Anand ..
jackhammerman

Peter Tones he checkmated me in 3 moves once

mcris

@alinfe: If you followed this threads, long time ago I asserted SmyslovFan's "bad faith" and "disinformation" (although I haven't used these words). From that point I stopped to argue with him.

@all: Very good article that describes the situation of the time:

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chess.pl?tid=54487

JonHutch

Tie between Fisher, Carlsen, and Kasparov.

JeffGreen333
alinfe wrote:

First thing first...

Fischer - Spassky, WCC (1972) - 12.5/20 = 62.5%

Karpov - Spassky, Candidates Semifinal (1974) - 7/11 = 63.6%

_____________________________________________________________________

Winning percentage difference 63.6%-62.5%=1.1% 

You are right, if we can't even agree on basic math and historical facts, there's no point in even attempting to engage in a debate!

Second, it's neither insulting or wrong to point out that you persistently gloss over facts in order to smear Fischer's reputation. Just like you glossed over most of my arguments, mainly because you can't refute them, and you know it. 

P.S. And by the way, I don't need to persuade you regarding facts. It takes a few mouse clicks if one is really interested in learning the truth. If on the other hand one is interested in disinformation and passing one's own speculations as truths/certainties, then I guess it's very convenient to ignore facts or live in a parallel universe. 

One of Spassky's "wins" against Fischer was a forfeit due to Fischer not showing up, so that shouldn't count in the comparisons.   Also, Spassky was 2 years older than he was when he played Fischer.   Spassky was also playing against a fellow Soviet in '74, so the powers that be didn't support him as much as they did when he played Fischer.  That makes a huge difference, as it's the Russian seconds that often win or lose the games.  In fact, when two Russians play each other, the Federation tells them who will win before they even start.  If they chose Karpov (for whatever reason), then Spassky probably threw the match on purpose.  So, you can throw this comparison out the window.  It's tainted.

hovejohn444

me

mcris
pfren wrote:

You forgot to mention that the Earth is flat, and that three plus three equalled seven in Soviet mathematics.

You Greeks were lucky not to fall under Stalin's boot after WW2, because such agreement with Churchill. We, Romanians and 10s of other milllions in Eastern and Central Europe were not so lucky. You should refrain from such remarks for the sake of millions victims.

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppressed_research_in_the_Soviet_Union

alinfe
JeffGreen333 wrote: 

One of Spassky's "wins" against Fischer was a forfeit due to Fischer not showing up, so that shouldn't count in the comparisons.   Also, Spassky was 2 years older than he was when he played Fischer.   Spassky was also playing against a fellow Soviet in '74, so the powers that be didn't support him as much as they did when he played Fischer.  

All very important points. Being deprived of support especially in an era when strong computers were not available made a crucial difference. With Fischer's crushing victory over Taimanov and impressive wins against Petrosian and Spassky, it appears that the soviet establishment finally adopted Korchnoi's point of view i.e. 'the generation defeated by Fischer no longer stood any chance against him'. So the next logical step was to look for someone younger which would receive all the attention, support and benefits previous world champions did. 

Some people still think the punishment or 'post mortem' were just a figure of speech, but the soviet establishment didn't take defeat too well, particularly at the hands of an ideological enemy (look what happened to Taimanov). To think Spassky's defeat had no impact on his career is naive. 

Finally, there's the motivational element. Many claim to this day that Spassky was very much looking forward to a rematch, but on the other hand there's quite a bit of evidence - including one video interview in English after the 1972 match - that points to the fact that Spassky was never a happy champion (heavy lies the crown). 

JeffGreen333
alinfe wrote:
All very important points. Being deprived of support especially in an era when strong computers were not available made a crucial difference. With Fischer's crushing victory over Taimanov and impressive wins against Petrosian and Spassky, it appears that the soviet establishment finally adopted Korchnoi's point of view i.e. 'the generation defeated by Fischer no longer stood any chance against him'. So the next logical step was to look for someone younger which would receive all the attention, support and benefits previous world champions did. 

Some people still think the punishment or 'post mortem' were just a figure of speech, but the soviet establishment didn't take defeat too well, particularly at the hands of an ideological enemy (look what happened to Taimanov). To think Spassky's defeat had no impact on his career is naive. 

Finally, there's the motivational element. Many claim to this day that Spassky was very much looking forward to a rematch, but on the other hand there's quite a bit of evidence - including one video interview in English after the 1972 match - that points to the fact that Spassky was never a happy champion (heavy lies the crown). 

True.  The Spassky of 1974 was not the same as the WC Spassky of 1971/72.  He was deflated from losing his title to an American, was being shunned by his government and no longer had his support team of 25 Russian GM's at his beck and call.   So, claiming that Karpov had a slightly better record vs the defeated 1974 Spassky than Fischer did vs the 1972 WC Spassky is totally irrelevant.   

yudhishthiraD
[COMMENT DELETED]
JonHutch
MarcoMarco3141 wrote:

Comparing people from different eras is always going to be intellectual speculation.

Who was the the better US Basketball player? Larry Byrd, Jordan, (pick a current player)?

Game was different, so hard to compare.

Well said. That is a perfect comparison. Fisher is like Jordan. Kasparov is like Kobe. Carlsen is like Lebron.

mcris
pfren wrote:
mcris έγραψε:
pfren wrote:

You forgot to mention that the Earth is flat, and that three plus three equalled seven in Soviet mathematics.

You Greeks were lucky not to fall under Stalin's boot after WW2, because such agreement with Churchill. We, Romanians and 10s of other milllions in Eastern and Central Europe were not so lucky. You should refrain from such remarks for the sake of millions victims.

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppressed_research_in_the_Soviet_Union

 

I wonder if your English is so poor that you never understand what you read, or you are just dumb.

I had forgotted that you are the one resorting to insults. Lucky you are a premium member and they will not close your account - exactly my previous remark, still true.

About English, I will accept such evaluation only at least from an anglo-saxon.

kindaspongey
[COMMENT DELETED]
DjonniDerevnja

Kasparov made a fantastic performance in his comebacktournament in st Louis, he was up there competing on the same level as the current best players in the world (except Carlsen). To pull a stunt like that in your first tournament for more than a decade, absolutely rusty and out of matchpractice is impossible unless you are circa the greatest of all time.    

alinfe
DjonniDerevnja wrote:

Kasparov made a fantastic performance in his comebacktournament in st Louis, he was up there competing on the same level as the current best players in the world (except Carlsen). To pull a stunt like that in your first tournament for more than a decade, absolutely rusty and out of matchpractice is impossible unless you are circa the greatest of all time.    

we must have been following different events then!

DjonniDerevnja
alinfe wrote:
DjonniDerevnja wrote:

Kasparov made a fantastic performance in his comebacktournament in st Louis, he was up there competing on the same level as the current best players in the world (except Carlsen). To pull a stunt like that in your first tournament for more than a decade, absolutely rusty and out of matchpractice is impossible unless you are circa the greatest of all time.    

we must have been following different events then!

I think we judge it somewhat different. Kasparov had great play in many games, lost some due to a few mistakes (which of course happens when your out of match practice) , but he was up there fighting . The last day he actually had +score.