New variant: I need your help!

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dax00

Yeah, the piece synergy is pretty good. And I guess the mammoth complex does hearken back to xiangqi elephants, which isn't such a bad thing. I'm much more of a strategist than a tactician, so it usually isn't a problem for me to adapt to new pieces.

I sleep 3 times in a day, about 2 hours each time. Seldom too energetic or too tired.

BattleChessGN18

Nice.

So, let's take a break from the testrun to discuss what we've discussed on the way. Then, we can continue. =)

You brought up the issue with the Mammoths. How profoundly do you wish that the starting positions of the forward Mammoths be pushed back 1 rank? Is that something you really think would benefit you as a player?

Also, do you feel that the Terracotta Soldiers obstruct your pieces' maneuverability, or do you think they are fine?

Finally, I want to update the powers of Trample-Capture. As it is right now, I realize how weak it is and how unlikely it's to occur: in order for it to happen, the obstructing enemy piece must be 1 step away from the target enemy piece, and instances of that are a bit of a Red needle in a small hay-sack. What if I made it so that the obstructing enemy piece can be anywhere between the 俑/雕/猛/獁 and the target enemy piece, so long as there is only 1 obstructing enemy piece?

I think this ^^^^ might make the elephant-base pieces (俑/雕/猛/獁) a little bit more powerful. After all, I made these pieces to be a much more enjoyably efficient group than their /象 predecessor.

dax00

I've thought about it some more. Move the terracotta soldiers each back a rank to give the cannons more flexibility. Leave the mammoths where they are. Let both terracotta soldiers and mammoths move 1-3 squares in their respective directions when not capturing, but still require captures to be either on the 2nd or 4th square. Boosting trample capture like that would make it too strong. I think it's fine if you leave trample capture how it is, as long as the general movement is improved as I suggest.

BattleChessGN18

Hmm. These do seem like interesting ideas.

Although, making the Elephant-base pieces capture at the 4th square in range does take away from the uniqueness of the Battering Rams. (Rams move as far as 3 squares, but their capture is as far as 4 squares.)

Pushing the Terracottas back 1 rank does look like it might be less obstructive; though, it will tamper with the design of the starting position by making it seem more random. (Then again, the placement of the cannons already does have a random kind of appearance about them. lol)

dax00

Rams are still plenty unique enough, since they don't move to the captured piece's square.

BattleChessGN18

That's a good point, too. =)

What if I placed the Terracottas smack-dab in the middle of the Mammoth-Serpent box? That would be 1 rank and 1 file inbetween. That way, the Rams might have more maneuverability, making it further possible for the Cannons to have maneuverability.

In all honesty, though, I'm hesitant to change the 2,4 movement of the Elephant-base pieces. It's what makes them unique as class Elephant pieces. We already have many other pieces that have consecutive range: Rooks, Sentinels (Qilin, Empress, Immortal Priest), Cannons and Rams. I think I might just keep them the way they are: squares 2 and 4 in range. Also, Trample-Capturing over obstructing pieces being anywhere inbetween might not be too powerful, since Elephant-base pieces are still very susceptible to being blocked. (They can't move to squares 1 and 3 in range.)

BattleChessGN18

Dax00's move:

1. 鎚j5-j6                 1... 它i14-h12

2. 炮l5-k5                2... 獁k14-m12

3. 俑h5-h3               3... 車m14-j14

4. 炮k5-h5               4... 錘j10-j7(xj6)

5. 兵i6-7                  5... 它h12-f9

6. 蛇e1-c4               6... 它f9xg7

7. 猛c3xg7              7... 砲l10-l2+(*蛋)

8. 蛇i1-k2                8... 砲l2-l9

9. 俥m-l1                9... 麟g-e8

10. 蛇c4-e7             10... c10==蛋

11. 猛g7xe9            11... 麟e8xe9

12. 蛇e7xc10(*蛋)(?)12... 山g14xc10

13. 俥l1x9??            13... 麟exl9

14.                          14...

BattleChessGN18's view as White

 

 

 

 

BattleChessGN18's move:

1. 鎚j5-j6                 1... 它i14-h12

2. 炮l5-k5                2... 獁k14-m12

3. 俑h5-h3               3... 車m14-j14

4. 炮k5-h5               4... 錘j10-j7(xj6)

5. 兵i6-7                  5... 它h12-f9

6. 蛇e1-c4               6... 它f9xg7

7. 猛c3xg7              7... 砲l10-l2+(*蛋)

8. 蛇i1-k2                8... 砲l2-l9

9. 俥m-l1                9... 麟g-e8

10. 蛇c4-e7             10... c10==蛋

11. 猛g7xe9            11... 麟e8xe9

12. 蛇e7xc10(*蛋)(?)12... 山g14xc10

13. 俥l1x9??            13... 麟exl9

14. h1==蛋             14...


BattleChessGN18's view as White

dax00

Apart from getting eggs, the elephant type pieces are almost worthless. They can barely reach any squares, only 1/8 of them. This problem is bad enough on the xiangqi board and much worse on this larger board. Another option is to allow them to move 1 square in any direction (non-capturing). I thought some more about your new trample capture idea - it's fine.

I also dislike how the cannons are basically forced to stay where they are or else surrender an egg to the opponent. Perhaps a further shrinking of the egg collection area is in order. My new suggestion is that players can only get eggs from the c-k files.

dax00

錘j7-l7

BattleChessGN18

I just performed a quick mathematical analysis comparing it to the Bishop piece in FIDE.  Actually, the Bishop pieace has about ~16% control of his 8x8 board, which is a little more than what each Elephant has: ~12.5% (1/8 control).

Over all, though, I think there's a reason why the Elephant piece is considered so outdated, for the reasons your mentioned: it's hard for them to capture pieces and to get around. They already play such a minor role in Xiangqi; keeping them for a variant that's supposed to serve as a kind of upgrade from Xiangqi would probably serve it no justice.

dax00

Bishops can reach half the squares on a board at range. No comparison. It's best to not remain "faithful" to the idea of a better elephant, rather a different kind of piece with elephant-like traits. I still think my ideas for upgrades were good considerations

  • Range 1-3 squares (non-capturing), captures 2 or 4 squares (new trample rule)
  • Step 1 square in any direction (non-capturing), captures 2 or 4 squares (new trample rule).

Another thought... Since you mentioned that diagonals should be more of a focus than in xiangqi, a diagonal counterpart to the ram is an idea.

BattleChessGN18

I realized that I performed my analysis wrong; I was comparing a Bishop's control at a given center position with an Elephant-base piece's total control.

I was actually in the middle of updating my thread to correct that, but I guess you got to it before I did.

And, actually, I was just thinking on your proposal on a Diagonal Ram. (Great minds think alike, I suppose.)

 

Another proposal: What if I made the Elephant-base piece's range infinite? They will always skip odd number squares in range, and Trample capture is 1 intervening piece inbetween, regardless of where. =)

 

Added - As far as your proposal on 

 - moving power - sliding -range of 3 squares

 - capturing power - squares 2 and 4 in range

I might create a new piece with just that power.

dax00

An infinite range elephant seems wrong compared to the other pieces, would make it way too easy to get eggs, still have a hard time capturing pieces, etc.. Skipping half the squares in one direction just doesn't work. If you want an elephant type piece, it needs a way to reach at least half the squares on a board.

BattleChessGN18

I have some ideas for a potentially alternative set up; which includes some of your suggestions. In the meantime, since you made a move - 

 

Dax00's move:

1. 鎚j5-j6                  1... 它i14-h12

2. 炮l5-k5                 2... 獁k14-m12

3. 俑h5-h3                3... 車m14-j14

4. 炮k5-h5                4... 錘j10-j7(xj6)

5. 兵i6-7                   5... 它h12-f9

6. 蛇e1-c4                6... 它f9xg7

7. 猛c3xg7               7... 砲l10-l2+(*蛋)

8. 蛇i1-k2                8... 砲l2-l9

9. 俥m-l1                 9... 麟g-e8

10. 蛇c4-e7             10... c10==蛋

11. 猛g7xe9            11... 麟e8xe9

12. 蛇e7xc10(*蛋)(?)12... 山g14xc10

13. 俥l1x9??            13... 麟exl9

14. h1==蛋             14... 錘j-l7

15.                           15...

16.                           16...

17.                           17...

18.                           18...

19.                           19...

20.                           20...

BattleChessGN18's view as White

 

 

 

BattleChessGN18's move:

1. 鎚j5-j6                  1... 它i14-h12

2. 炮l5-k5                 2... 獁k14-m12

3. 俑h5-h3                3... 車m14-j14

4. 炮k5-h5                4... 錘j10-j7(xj6)

5. 兵i6-7                   5... 它h12-f9

6. 蛇e1-c4                6... 它f9xg7

7. 猛c3xg7               7... 砲l10-l2+(*蛋)

8. 蛇i1-k2                8... 砲l2-l9

9. 俥m-l1                 9... 麟g-e8

10. 蛇c4-e7             10... c10==蛋

11. 猛g7xe9            11... 麟e8xe9

12. 蛇e7xc10(*蛋)(?)12... 山g14xc10

13. 俥l1x9??            13... 麟exl9

14. h1==蛋             14... 錘j-l7

15. 炮h-j5                15...

16.                           16...

17.                           17...

18.                           18...

19.                           19...

20.                           20...

BattleChessGN18's view as White

BattleChessGN18

By the way, were you ever going to tell me that, in my diagrams, I accidentally wrote, "Player [1/2)'s Chicken Egg Inventory"? xD

Or were you just going to keep that there for comedy hour throughout the entire test run? =D

dax00

i thought it was kinda funny

車j14-j6

BattleChessGN18

They say chickens are dinosaur's closest living relatives. (That's actually been refuted, but point being is that, at one point, they said this. lol)

Of course, Dinoaurs and Dragons aren't that related to each other... or, are they? =3

 

 

 

Dax00's move:

1. 鎚j5-j6                  1... 它i14-h12

2. 炮l5-k5                 2... 獁k14-m12

3. 俑h5-h3                3... 車m14-j14

4. 炮k5-h5                4... 錘j10-j7(xj6)

5. 兵i6-7                   5... 它h12-f9

6. 蛇e1-c4                6... 它f9xg7

7. 猛c3xg7               7... 砲l10-l2+(*蛋)

8. 蛇i1-k2                8... 砲l2-l9

9. 俥m-l1                 9... 麟g-e8

10. 蛇c4-e7             10... c10==蛋

11. 猛g7xe9            11... 麟e8xe9

12. 蛇e7xc10(*蛋)(?)12... 山g14xc10

13. 俥l1x9??            13... 麟exl9

14. h1==蛋             14... 錘j-l7

15. 炮h-j5                15... 車j14-6

16.                           16...

17.                           17...

18.                           18...

19.                           19...

20.                           20...

BattleChessGN18's view as White

 

 

 

 

BattleChessGN18's move:

1. 鎚j5-j6                  1... 它i14-h12

2. 炮l5-k5                 2... 獁k14-m12

3. 俑h5-h3                3... 車m14-j14

4. 炮k5-h5                4... 錘j10-j7(xj6)

5. 兵i6-7                   5... 它h12-f9

6. 蛇e1-c4                6... 它f9xg7

7. 猛c3xg7               7... 砲l10-l2+(*蛋)

8. 蛇i1-k2                8... 砲l2-l9

9. 俥m-l1                 9... 麟g-e8

10. 蛇c4-e7             10... c10==蛋

11. 猛g7xe9            11... 麟e8xe9

12. 蛇e7xc10(*蛋)(?)12... 山g14xc10

13. 俥l1x9??            13... 麟exl9

14. h1==蛋             14... 錘j-l7

15. 炮h-j5                15... 車j14-6

16. 炮b5-7               16... 

17.                           17...

18.                           18...

19.                           19...

20.                           20...

BattleChessGN18's view as White

dax00

錘l7-j7(xi7)

BattleChessGN18

Dax00's move:

1. 鎚j5-j6                  1... 它i14-h12

2. 炮l5-k5                 2... 獁k14-m12

3. 俑h5-h3                3... 車m14-j14

4. 炮k5-h5                4... 錘j10-j7(xj6)

5. 兵i6-7                   5... 它h12-f9

6. 蛇e1-c4                6... 它f9xg7

7. 猛c3xg7               7... 砲l10-l2+(*蛋)

8. 蛇i1-k2                8... 砲l2-l9

9. 俥m-l1                 9... 麟g-e8

10. 蛇c4-e7             10... c10==蛋

11. 猛g7xe9            11... 麟e8xe9

12. 蛇e7xc10(*蛋)(?)12... 山g14xc10

13. 俥l1x9??            13... 麟exl9

14. h1==蛋             14... 錘j-l7

15. 炮h-j5                15... 車j14-6

16. 炮b5-7               16... 錘l-j7(xi7)

17.                           17...

18.                           18...

19.                           19...

20.                           20...

BattleChessGN18's view as White

 

 

 

 

BattleChessGN18's move:

1. 鎚j5-j6                  1... 它i14-h12

2. 炮l5-k5                 2... 獁k14-m12

3. 俑h5-h3                3... 車m14-j14

4. 炮k5-h5                4... 錘j10-j7(xj6)

5. 兵i6-7                   5... 它h12-f9

6. 蛇e1-c4                6... 它f9xg7

7. 猛c3xg7               7... 砲l10-l2+(*蛋)

8. 蛇i1-k2                8... 砲l2-l9

9. 俥m-l1                 9... 麟g-e8

10. 蛇c4-e7             10... c10==蛋

11. 猛g7xe9            11... 麟e8xe9

12. 蛇e7xc10(*蛋)(?)12... 山g14xc10

13. 俥l1x9??            13... 麟exl9

14. h1==蛋             14... 錘j-l7

15. 炮h-j5                15... 車j14-6

16. 炮b5-7               16... 錘l-j7(xi7)

17. 炮j5x7                17...

18.                           18...

19.                           19...

20.                           20...

BattleChessGN18's view as White

 

dax00

車j6xj7