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Bull Dog chess (theory, comments, etc.)

  • #1

    This thread is for anyone who would like to comment on bull dog chess.

    The idea of bull dog chess is just to make a variation of normal chess.  It also makes the normal opening books less useful, and end-game theory and datatables may need to be reconsidered before arriving at conclusions for a game (best move, win, draw, lose, etc). Also, cheating may be more difficult because there are few or no engines for this type of variant.
     
    Some proposed or active chess variants have new powerful and creative pieces, such as archbishops, teleporters, deathknights, robots, morphers, walls, and siege towers. I like those ideas, but they can be very powerful pieces, and may require much larger boards.  That amount of thinking power is too much for me (but I love the idea and may try it sometime).  Bull dog chess just has two new modest pieces, and is on an 8x10 board. Here are the rules:
    (also posted separately to see if anyone would like to play a game).
    Bull Dog Chess:
    Played on a 10 x 8 board.
    Two new pieces:
    1) Guard (G): Moves and captures like a king. But no other penalty if attacked or captured. (worth 2 points?)
    phpiLzFxA.jpeg
     
     
     
    2) Bulldog (D): Moves and attacks the same as a pawn, except pieces FROM ITS OWN ARMY ONLY can pass over it in any direction. If a bull dog reaches the 8th rank it can immediately move to any square in the first four ranks (but cannot capture a piece during this move). This move can only be completed during the same move it reaches the 8th rank. (If this option is not taken, the bulldog forfeits the right to do so later and therefore is stuck where it is). The bull dog does not promote to other pieces as pawns do. (worth 1 point?)
    phpW1MEjS.jpeg
     
     
     
    Board Setup:
    phpTasZKs.jpeg
     
    Castling:
    Castling is similar as in classical chess, however, with the board 10 files wide, the king travels three squares rather than two. The rook finishes adjacent to the king, either on the d-square if queen-side, or h-square if king-side. (note files are numbered "a-j" with "a" and "j" being the new flanks). As usual when castling, all squares between the king and the involved rook must be unoccupied, and this includes the square where the guard is initially positioned.
    Other rules of this game are identical with rules of classical chess.
     
    If anyone would like to play or see if there is a game ongoing go here: (game)
     
    My analysis of bull dog chess is not very thorough.  I assume it increases the complexity (number of games or positions possible) due to the larger board size. The new pieces aren't very powerful, so the amount of "power" or piece capability for the board size is about the same.  If we assume normal piece valuations, the guard is worth 2, and the bulldog worth 1 (not sure if this is accurate?), then comparing power to available board we have this comparison:
     
                                                    classical chess         bulldog chess
    Board size:                             8 x 8 = 64                  10 x 8 = 80
    Value of all material:            39 x 2 = 78                45 x 2 = 90
    (not including king)
    power density:                      1.219                         1.125
    (value of pcs/board size)
     
    So the amount of piece capability relative to the board is actually a little lower for bull dog chess.  That is we don't have any new superqueens or trebuchets that can hurl danger to far away squares.  The implication is that games may go a little more slowly? (but not sure). 
     
    Well if anyone has any other ideas, analysis, theory, or comments feel free to leave them herehappy.png
  • #2

    There has been another thread where it was concluded that a piece with only king-like movement could be worth 4 points.

     

    At home I was trying a piece that is 'transparent' for other friendly pieces - meaning friendly pieces that normally don't jump do jump over that piece - and it temporarily passed that same transparency to all pieces adjacent in that position. It's fun that your bull dog looks like it.

  • #3

    Only I would not prefer the name bull dog. Chess represents some medieval setting and then what's the bull dog doing there?

  • #4
    evertVB wrote:

    There has been another thread where it was concluded that a piece with only king-like movement could be worth 4 points. 

    I think it's correct that a king-like piece should be worth more than 2 points. My guess is it's closer to 3, just because it is slow-moving. But maybe a good player can put it to great use both for defending and attacking - we'll see!

    I also like your ideas for pieces that transfer abilities to other pieces.  Something for me to try later on?

    I agree the name bull dog has some problems. I don't think bull dogs were used in medieval fights either - but they were once used to help corner or lead wild bulls.

    But I cannot think of another name for this piece.  The bulldog might actually be worth slightly less than a pawn because it can never promote to another piece.  So its name has to be about equivalent to a pawn.  Maybe a pikeman?  (but if a pawn can promote, why not a pikeman?).

    Also, if the piece gets a different name, then the name of the game might need to be changed too! But we can consider anything for new games in the future! Any creative ideas from anyone?

  • #5
    vickalan wrote:
    I also like your ideas for pieces that transfer abilities to other pieces.  Something for me to try later on?

     

    It's not my idea. Take a look into the Magician and Femme fatale in Superchess.

  • #6
    evertVB wrote:

    There has been another thread where it was concluded that a piece with only king-like movement could be worth 4 points.

    Back in the 1970s, 4 points was the accepted "equivalent fighting strength" of a King, yes.

  • #7
    blueemu wrote:
    evertVB wrote:

    There has been another thread where it was concluded that a piece with only king-like movement could be worth 4 points.

    Back in the 1970s, 4 points was the accepted "equivalent fighting strength" of a King, yes.

    I think 4 points is about right. It has access to 8 squares when in the center of the board, same as the knight, and has access to more squares than the knight when it is on an edge or corner.

  • #8

    You guys seem to be right! Wikipedia has a table "Chess piece relative value" that shows two chess champions or grandmasters (Lasker and Evans) estimated the king is worth 4 points in fighting value (Evans also estimated the knight and the bishop are 3½ and the queen 10).

    So the guard(4) maybe fills a "hole" between the knight and bishop(3 ea) and the rook(5)happy.png.

    I'll also update the table above here:

                                                  classical chess     bulldog chess

    Board size                            8 x 8 = 64            10 x 8 = 80
    Value of all material:          39 x 2 = 78          49 x 2 = 98
    (not including king)
    Power density:                    1.219                    1.225
    (value of pcs/board size)

    This means the bulldog setup has almost exactly the same "material power density" as classical chess.  We're just on a bigger board and no complete opening books to use!

  • #9
    vickalan wrote:

    I agree the name bull dog has some problems. I don't think bull dogs were used in medieval fights either - but they were once used to help corner or lead wild bulls.

     

    Siege tower? As it allows you to attack while being defended yourself.

  • #10

    I like that idea!  It will be a small siege tower because it cannot attack large pieces but that is OK. Medieval warfare had many types of siege towers - small and large.  I will make an icon for a siege tower, and then maybe I can use it in a game in the future!

  • #11
    vickalan wrote:

    You guys seem to be right! Wikipedia has a table "Chess piece relative value" that shows two chess champions or grandmasters (Lasker and Evans) estimated the king is worth 4 points in fighting value (Evans also estimated the knight and the bishop are 3½ and the queen 10).

    So the guard(4) maybe fills a "hole" between the knight and bishop(3 ea) and the rook(5).

    I'll also update the table above here:

                                                  classical chess     bulldog chess

    Board size                            8 x 8 = 64            10 x 8 = 80
    Value of all material:          39 x 2 = 78          49 x 2 = 90
    (not including king)
    Power density:                    1.219                    1.225
    (value of pcs/board size)

    This means the bulldog setup has almost exactly the same "material power density" as classical chess.  We're just on a bigger board and no complete opening books to use!

    Wouldn't the larger board also increase the power of rooks and queens slightly relative to short-range pieces? So a rook in bullgod wouldn't be worth exactly the same as a rook in chess, and therefore you can't easily compare "power densities" of the two games.

  • #12
    Wouldn't the larger board also increase the power of rooks and queens slightly relative to short-range pieces? So a rook in bullgod wouldn't be worth exactly the same as a rook in chess, and therefore you can't easily compare "power densities" of the two games.

    Yes, I think you're right. On the other hand short-range pieces (knights, and the king if he fights) might be at a slight disadvantage because now they can be farther from potential action. I don't know if it balances out or not.

    I think the question of how much power to place on a board has always been a question when new variants are considered. When Capablanca and Lasker played Capablanca chess, they found games rarely lasted more than 25 moves because of the power of the new pieces. But they probably enjoyed the dynamics. But Winter (a British champion) believed there were too many strong pieces, making the minor pieces less-important.  I don't know if Capablanca had any other methods to analyze his new game, except by playing it. I'd be interested if now there is any computer-based methods to check out some of these chess variantshappy.png.

  • #13

    Siege tower? As it allows you to attack while being defended yourself.

    So I did make an icon for a siege tower. Here it is (next to a pawn and a rook for comparison):

    phpe4stL5.jpeg

    It is modeled from this image I found:

    phpxFe2sB.jpeg(''http://perrysheroes.free.fr/spip.php?article422)

    Later I might replace the bulldog with the siege tower (but keeping the rules the same). I like the point you said - it defends, but men from its own army can advance in front of it. (also I don't want to see any dogs used in war!)
  • #14
    knig22 wrote:

    Can a rook jump over same color bulldog/siegtower?

    Yes any piece from the siege tower's own army can jump over a siege tower (as long as that piece normally has the range). So a rook, bishop, and queen can move or capture over a siege tower. But pawns, guards, and the king cannot jump over a siege tower because they can't move two squares anyway. I look forward to playing a game with you soonhappy.png!

  • #15

    I see there are a few variant games going on which is great to see (waterloo, bulldog etc.)!happy.png

    If anyone would like the board and pieces (for bulldog or any variant on 10 x 8 board) feel free to use the images below. The first is the bulldog starting position (pieces in classical style), and the second is a collection of all required pieces plus a few others (both black and white pieces on light and dark squares).
     
    I also have a few other piece icons such as archbishop, chancellor, amazon, and also a spy and wiseman for waterloo or other games. If anyone would like to use them for any game just leave a comment or send a message.happy.png
    php0voGEz.pngphpSBnZl3.png
  • #16

    The bulldog icon has returned. Now he looks like a little dog! Here he is next to a pawn:

    phpEBBtsi.png

    He is the same piece as the siege-tower (same abilities), just a different icon. Anyone can play with either icon.

    And he makes a brief appearance (here) in the off-topic forum (post #24).happy.png

  • #17

    I just learnt that the Dog is a Tenjiku Shogi piece.

  • #18
    I think that's the game that HGMuller mentioned (a very big board but strong pieces so it is fast playing)?
    I didn't think there's a dog in there. The poor dogs in that game don't even get a name. Just "dog". At least in bulldog, I tried to give him a personality. And there's a smiling version too.happy.png

    phpBJ2jXc.png

  • #19
    Name the bulldog Squire (Less movement than knight, better than pawn)
  • #20
    I think the bulldog is weaker than a normal pawn. (mainly, because he doesn't promote if he crosses the board).
     
    Besides, the name "Bulldog" is not the same as "Dog". The picture at the left is the Chinese dog. Next is the bulldog for the gothic piece collection. 3rd is the classic bulldog. The last picture is a bulldog on a defeated peasant. I have another version with blood flowing down the torso of the peasant. You can vote for the best image (here).happy.png
    php0lU4u6.png

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