CHALLENGE DEFENDED #1: SP864 BBQR-KRNN : 1.Ng3 refuted with 2…Qg4
Do you find chess960 challenging or fun?
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Jul 29, 2013
0
#43
CHALLENGE DEFENDED #1: SP864 BBQR-KRNN : 1.Ng3 refuted with 2…Qg4 and second continuation (unofficial speculation at this point).
ok...
SaharanKnight wrote:
1.Ng3 refuted with 2…Qg4
Actually your example is creative and I commend you for your bravery and honesty but this shows me why Chess960 DOES have principals and theories.
As soon as you thought about moving your queen to g4 a BIG warning should have gone off. Moving the queen out early provokes a serious counter-attack unless the move is so strong that there is no refutation or the queen has an absolutely assured outpost.
But she doesn't. Even more serious is that white just continues on with the same plan!
2....Qg4 3. Nf5! {the g2 pawn is poison}
Notice here that ...Qxc4 is an empty move because it attacks nothing and white is not forced to play QxQ.
3.....e6?! 4.Ne3...{Black's queen will come under heavy barrage with no good flight square while white will continue a crushing development}
or
3....Nh6 4.Ne3...Qd7 {Black can castle but has wasted so much tempo and the d5 pawn will drop}
Jul 30, 2013
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#46
Yes, the principle "avoid early queen development" has been put aside above; however, White did not begin with a center pawn move, which principle normally requires.
No, as I see it, bringing the queen out on the second move after 2.c4 is not rash. The queen is brought out to either thwart or slow down a White attack on g7, etc., to allow a Black castle O-O-O and to possibly bring on a queen-for-queen exchange (if attacked at g4 and after taking pawn at c4).
Jul 30, 2013
0
#47
glider1001 wrote:
SaharanKnight wrote:
1.Ng3 refuted with 2…Qg4
Actually your example is creative... Even more serious is that white just continues on with the same plan! 2....Qg4 3. Nf5! {the g2 pawn is poison} Notice here that ...Qxc4 is an empty move because it attacks nothing and white is not forced to play QxQ.
Well, let's remember that 2...Qg4 is my one refutation (I have a second one) and that the other moves are as yet "unofficial", okay? So after 2...Qg4, then the proposed 3.Nf5 may bring the castling response, 3...O-O-O. That appears to be a good enough position for Black, with 4.cxd5 perhaps bringing on 4...b6, and I think Black should regain the loss of the pawn.
Jul 30, 2013
0
#48
glider1001 wrote:
SaharanKnight wrote:
1.Ng3 refuted with 2…Qg4
Actually your example is creative and I commend you for your bravery and honesty but this shows me why Chess960 DOES have principals and theories.
...
2....Qg4 3. Nf5! {the g2 pawn is poison} ... 3.....e6?! 4.Ne3...{Black's queen will come under heavy barrage with no good flight square while white will continue a crushing development}
I really appreciate the challenge, and I am still toying with the 3.Nf5 move. So, instead of castling, because Black's position is not immediately threatened there, Black may play 3...d4 (not 3...e6?) to preempt the forked threat of 4.Ne3. The immediate plan for Black is to not lose the d-pawn for nothing, as 3...O-O-O 4.Ne3 could have produced. Note that Black remains in position to castle.
SaharanKnight:
3...d4!? is a very creative idea again well done. However yet another opening principle is now being broken. The same pawn moved twice for no net benefit. White is under no pressure and just continues with development. Black is falling behind by at least two tempo.
4.b4...O-O-O? 5.Bxd4 {black is down a pawn, the king will be exposed and the queen stranded}
Got to hand it to you though for trying to find a way to castle queenside!
You are going to seriously have to re-think the theory that white's benefit is never more than a tempo! If you want to frame a better argument you could say that anything more than a tempo is an outlier case and therefore can be ignored (but you would have to prove it).
I think the thread title says it all. Chess960 is fun AND challenging (not OR). Thanks to Psy_Junior for starting it and sorry for going off topic.
Jul 31, 2013
0
#51
Continuing with SP864 BBQRKRNN, the line 1.Ng3 d5 2.c4 Qg4 is certainly creative, especially because it prepares ...O-O-O, an idea I didn't think was possible so early in this SP. Nice find, SaharanKnight, although you spoil it somewhat by continuing with the awkward 3.h3 (the other suggestion 3.Bf5, might be better). I've noticed you have a tendency to propose passive moves for your opponent, so let's look at something more aggressive for White.
Re glider1001's comment that 'Moving the queen out early provokes a serious counter-attack unless the move is so strong [...]', I have played a handful of chess960 games where the Queen is developed early. It works when the opponent is unable to develop an initiative against the exposed Queen. Is that the case here? I don't know.
Back to 2...Qg4, White has a number of stronger moves worth trying: 3.d4, 3.b4, 3.b3, 3.Nf5, maybe others. Each of these moves has several possible continuations for Black, so I'm not going to take this any further. I don't agree that SaharanKnight has 'refuted' 1.Ng3, but I will agree that he has found a playable variation for Black that needs some practical tests in real games. The resulting positions are so unclear that this is as much as anyone can say for now. Even so, nice work!
SaharanKnight, you mention that you have a second 'refutation' in your bag of tricks. Would you share that also? - Mark
P.S. Apologies to Psy_Junior for going somewhat off-topic. Having said that, I think we've shown that chess960 is both challenging *and* fun.
Jul 31, 2013
0
#52
Thanks, Mark, and "glider1001"!
Well... the best refutation may well be 1.Nf6, which move exists in my ideal proposed opening, given earlier: 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6. Note that with 1.Ng3 Nf6, if White moves 2.Nf5, then Black has the simple 2...Rg8. That removes Black's chance to castle on that side, but it looks to me that Black will gain a tempo with 3...e6.
Jul 31, 2013
0
#53
CHALLENGE DEFENDED #1: SP864 BBQR-KRNN : 1.Ng3 refuted with 1.Nf6 (final, serious refutation!)
Man, I find chess960 pretty challenging.
Aug 1, 2013
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#56
SaharanKnight wrote:
Well... the best refutation may well be 1.Nf6, which move exists in my ideal proposed opening, given earlier: 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6. Note that with 1.Ng3 Nf6, if White moves 2.Nf5, then Black has the simple 2...Rg8. That removes Black's chance to castle on that side, but it looks to me that Black will gain a tempo with 3...e6.
That's the line that's been tried the most. As you say, Black gives up castling O-O. If you look at the continuations, you'll also see that Black has little chance to castle O-O-O. The upshot is that Black defends with the King in the center for a long time, hoping that White's initiative will somehow dissipate. So far no decisive continuation for White has been found, but it's not much fun to play for Black.
Back to GM Kaufman's database work, he calculates that the castling privilege -- again in the traditional setup -- is worth a Pawn. That means forfeiting the castling privilege on the second move increases the opponent's advantage, which was the condition you specified in your challenge.
In this thread we've been looking at SP864 BBQRKRNN. The setup SP868 QBBRKRNN, which is SP864 with the Queen and Bishop switched, gives White the same opportunity to launch an immediate attack, but there is no ...Qg4 idea available. - Mark
Aug 9, 2013
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#57
Ziggyblitz wrote:
Chess960 is strange, confusing and totally useless. It won't improve your regular chess game one bit. Bobby Fischer wanted to avoid opponents who could remember thousands of opening moves and thousands of games. Me...I can't even remember my last game.
What does it have to do with regular chess? Opening theory don't apply in chess960. Even Capablanca wanted to change the rules.
Hi!!!
Aug 13, 2013
0
#59
CHALLENGE DEFENDED #1: SP864 BBQR-KRNN : 1.Ng3 refuted with 1.Nf6 & continuation #1: 2.Nf5 Nh5
CHALLENGE DEFENDED #1: SP864 BBQR-KRNN : 1.Ng3 refuted with 2…Qg4
The refutation of 1.Ng3 (with 1…d5 2.c4, as accepted) should be 2…Qg4, as I see it. Giving a single move 2…Qg4 as the refutation of 1.Ng3 means that the burden of proof is now on the challenger (Mark, and I welcome others) to bring moves that prove that the 1.Ng3 line played well by White will give White the advantage (besides the original one of tempo).