Is it OK to use notes (e.g. opening lines) when you play on-line chess? - Chess Forums - Page 3

SinkingOrSwimming

Aug 24, 2021

0

#41

JockeQ wrote: SinkingOrSwimming skrev:

"Yeah but if I don't give myself the time to find the patterns I'll never leatn to see them."

Ok, try to remember the number 67 for next week. If I ask you tomorrow, you are more likely to remember it.

My birth year so I think I'll manage!

Ok, how about 23942093423049872304723482.28347298347293847239847239847239847239847293847298347923874

I will ask you this number in the year 2025.

nklristic

Aug 24, 2021

0

#42

PerpetuallyPinned wrote:

nklristic wrote:

JockeQ wrote:

What is that you refer to as "live chess"?

Basically everything except daily chess.

I don't belive this to be the case in practice.

If you took lots of notes on many games of a particular opening variation and a few good lines and then studied the resulting endgames and had a strong understanding of each sides plans...you could easily get banned for assistance in daily without any proof of an acknowledged federation's rating. Let's say you played a themed opening tournament and did very well...you will now be in the spotlight.

They say you can use opening books. I'm not sure, but I doubt they have every opening book programmed with all the lines/games included. So, use those books at your risk as well after a certain point in the game.

https://www.chess.com/legal/fair-play

You may use Opening Explorer or other books without engine evaluations in Daily chess only (not in Online / Live play)

PerpetuallyPinned

Aug 24, 2021

0

#43

wyoav211933 wrote:

PerpetuallyPinned wrote:

nklristic wrote:

JockeQ wrote:

What is that you refer to as "live chess"?

Basically everything except daily chess.

I don't belive this to be the case in practice.

If you took lots of notes on many games of a particular opening variation and a few good lines and then studied the resulting endgames and had a strong understanding of each sides plans...you could easily get banned for assistance in daily without any proof of an acknowledged federation's rating. Let's say you played a themed opening tournament and did very well...you will now be in the spotlight.

They say you can use opening books. I'm not sure, but I doubt they have every opening book programmed with all the lines/games included. So, use those books at your risk as well after a certain point in the game.

I am 99% sure you would not get banned on chess.com for doing this in daily, and chess.com is on the more strict side compared to what other sites and federations allow for correspondence chess. I will refer you to the following https://support.chess.com/article/648-what-do-i-need-to-know-about-fair-play-on-chess-com

It literally says "In Daily Chess (turn-based games with several days per move), you may consult any resource which is not engine-based. This includes books, opening databases (including the Chess.com Explorer) for [www.chess.com/openings|opening moves], and thematic games (though not their engine analyses). Tablebases are NOT allowed. You may not consult an engine, or another human, to provide an opinion on the opening database, tablebases, self-preparation or analysis that would relate to a particular game-in-progress on Chess.com." Also when you play daily, chess.com even provides a place where you can write notes. The only things that aren't allowed are engine analysis, endgame tablebases, and getting input from others on a game in progress.

That 1% of doubt...

Has this site addressed the issue? Yes, by banning when they determine beyond what they consider a "reasonable doubt". Sounds like a courtroom (do they have real judges?)

Why would I ask anyone (or an engine) about a line in the (example) Catalan when I can use a very good book written by a GM and a database of GM games including similar endings and then refer to an endgame book or 2? To the software they use...it will look like "assistance" (which it is imo). There's a point where you should draw the line. I think it's when you enter a middlegame or an early endgame.

As I eluded, they have no idea what everyone is using for refence material and books nowadays are written using engines to verify "evaluations" of positions.

nklristic

Aug 24, 2021

0

#44

SinkingOrSwimming wrote:

"I've yet to hear any coach that says that 5 blitz games are better than 1 higher quality game for improvement."

They are probably not referring to what I am talking about. They are used to getting students making quick decisions in positions they have no clue on. However, what that coach could do is say "Look student, if you play A, B, C, D, E, and F then you can spend more time on G."

The student goes home and either does what the coach says. If they do, then yes you spend more time on move G. However, what if you don't know A-F? Is spending more time the answer? At which point are you going to memorize A-F so you can get to G?

The coach won't care. If you spend more time with B to C, that just means you are a guaranteed student for next week. They get their hourly rate regardless.

I am saying, learn those patterns. This is a non-issue. There are plenty of strong players that agree with this. Know your lines and know to recognize them. If you watched Sinquefield this week Yasser has already stated. If I can find a clip I will post here.

You don't need more time to recognize patterns. You should learn to recognize them quickly.

Learning patterns is fine, but blitz is played differently than longer time controls. People use tricks in blitz which will not work as well in longer games. For instance one opponent tried fishing pole trap. It took me 3-5 minutes too see why exactly it doesn't work there and I punished him and won. If it was blitz I would have lost and his trap would be viable as I would either lose a lot of time and flagged or I would leave his active piece close to my king and be worse.

And both of us would be worse of as a result. They would continue to do it thinking it is a great move, and I wouldn't be able to calculate what happens if I take and why it doesn't work. In blitz you get to show what you already know generally, it is difficult to come up with ideas you don't know beforehand as well. It is a different form of chess where one strategy could be to play tugh moves for the opponent even though they do not work, because they may lose on time more easily. Those who want to improve will generally miss out a lot if they don't play longer games.

If you play blitz, you will not be better at calculation as well, which is an important part of chess.

nklristic

Aug 24, 2021

0

#45

PerpetuallyPinned wrote:

wyoav211933 wrote:

PerpetuallyPinned wrote:

nklristic wrote:

JockeQ wrote:

What is that you refer to as "live chess"?

Basically everything except daily chess.

I don't belive this to be the case in practice.

If you took lots of notes on many games of a particular opening variation and a few good lines and then studied the resulting endgames and had a strong understanding of each sides plans...you could easily get banned for assistance in daily without any proof of an acknowledged federation's rating. Let's say you played a themed opening tournament and did very well...you will now be in the spotlight.

They say you can use opening books. I'm not sure, but I doubt they have every opening book programmed with all the lines/games included. So, use those books at your risk as well after a certain point in the game.

I am 99% sure you would not get banned on chess.com for doing this in daily, and chess.com is on the more strict side compared to what other sites and federations allow for correspondence chess. I will refer you to the following https://support.chess.com/article/648-what-do-i-need-to-know-about-fair-play-on-chess-com

It literally says "In Daily Chess (turn-based games with several days per move), you may consult any resource which is not engine-based. This includes books, opening databases (including the Chess.com Explorer) for [www.chess.com/openings|opening moves], and thematic games (though not their engine analyses). Tablebases are NOT allowed. You may not consult an engine, or another human, to provide an opinion on the opening database, tablebases, self-preparation or analysis that would relate to a particular game-in-progress on Chess.com." Also when you play daily, chess.com even provides a place where you can write notes. The only things that aren't allowed are engine analysis, endgame tablebases, and getting input from others on a game in progress.

That 1% of doubt...

Has this site addressed the issue? Yes, by banning when they determine beyond what they consider a "reasonable doubt". Sounds like a courtroom (do they have real judges?)

Why would I ask anyone (or an engine) about a line in the (example) Catalan when I can use a very good book written by a GM and a database of GM games including similar endings and then refer to an endgame book or 2? To the software they use...it will look like "assistance" (which it is imo). There's a point where you should draw the line. I think it's when you enter a middlegame or an early endgame.

As I eluded, they have no idea what everyone is using for refence material and books nowadays are written using engines to verify "evaluations" of positions.

There is a fair play policy I've linked in previous post and it addresses that topic, and it is as we've said, it is not cheating in daily(as long as there is no engine involved). On top of it all, there is an opening explorer inside the game itself in a separate tab, it is very similar to other opening explorers available online (some others have some different games but still, the main stuff is there). So ... yeah I am not working for chess.com so I can say for certain, but as the opening moves are there inside the game itself, it should be 100% sure.

As for who they ban, they ban thanks to that algorithm of theirs, and for reasonable reasons, we can't know everything about it, in order for them to be effective at catching real cheaters.

In practice however, except in some really theoretically covered stuff like 20 something moves in poisoned pawn variation, you will get out of book ariound move 10 or even before sometimes.

wyoav211933

Aug 24, 2021

0

#46

PerpetuallyPinned wrote:

wyoav211933 wrote:

PerpetuallyPinned wrote:

nklristic wrote:

JockeQ wrote:

What is that you refer to as "live chess"?

Basically everything except daily chess.

I don't belive this to be the case in practice.

If you took lots of notes on many games of a particular opening variation and a few good lines and then studied the resulting endgames and had a strong understanding of each sides plans...you could easily get banned for assistance in daily without any proof of an acknowledged federation's rating. Let's say you played a themed opening tournament and did very well...you will now be in the spotlight.

They say you can use opening books. I'm not sure, but I doubt they have every opening book programmed with all the lines/games included. So, use those books at your risk as well after a certain point in the game.

I am 99% sure you would not get banned on chess.com for doing this in daily, and chess.com is on the more strict side compared to what other sites and federations allow for correspondence chess. I will refer you to the following https://support.chess.com/article/648-what-do-i-need-to-know-about-fair-play-on-chess-com

It literally says "In Daily Chess (turn-based games with several days per move), you may consult any resource which is not engine-based. This includes books, opening databases (including the Chess.com Explorer) for [www.chess.com/openings|opening moves], and thematic games (though not their engine analyses). Tablebases are NOT allowed. You may not consult an engine, or another human, to provide an opinion on the opening database, tablebases, self-preparation or analysis that would relate to a particular game-in-progress on Chess.com." Also when you play daily, chess.com even provides a place where you can write notes. The only things that aren't allowed are engine analysis, endgame tablebases, and getting input from others on a game in progress.

That 1% of doubt...

Has this site addressed the issue? Yes, by banning when they determine beyond what they consider a "reasonable doubt". Sounds like a courtroom (do they have real judges?)

Why would I ask anyone (or an engine) about a line in the (example) Catalan when I can use a very good book written by a GM and a database of GM games including similar endings and then refer to an endgame book or 2? To the software they use...it will look like "assistance" (which it is imo). There's a point where you should draw the line. I think it's when you enter a middlegame or an early endgame.

As I eluded, they have no idea what everyone is using for refence material and books nowadays are written using engines to verify "evaluations" of positions.

I'm a member of the "cheating forum" club, where topics like this are brought up regularly. I am by no means a master at cheat detection, but the moderator of the group and many of the long-time members are. Because detailed comments on cheating should only occur in that group and not in the public forums I won't say too much. But several of the most experienced folks there will say that there is a still a noticeable difference to experienced cheat detectors between play inspired by even very detailed notes, books, and review of games vs engine play.

PerpetuallyPinned

Aug 24, 2021

0

#47

wyoav211933 wrote:

PerpetuallyPinned wrote:

wyoav211933 wrote:

PerpetuallyPinned wrote:

nklristic wrote:

JockeQ wrote:

What is that you refer to as "live chess"?

Basically everything except daily chess.

I don't belive this to be the case in practice.

If you took lots of notes on many games of a particular opening variation and a few good lines and then studied the resulting endgames and had a strong understanding of each sides plans...you could easily get banned for assistance in daily without any proof of an acknowledged federation's rating. Let's say you played a themed opening tournament and did very well...you will now be in the spotlight.

They say you can use opening books. I'm not sure, but I doubt they have every opening book programmed with all the lines/games included. So, use those books at your risk as well after a certain point in the game.

I am 99% sure you would not get banned on chess.com for doing this in daily, and chess.com is on the more strict side compared to what other sites and federations allow for correspondence chess. I will refer you to the following https://support.chess.com/article/648-what-do-i-need-to-know-about-fair-play-on-chess-com

It literally says "In Daily Chess (turn-based games with several days per move), you may consult any resource which is not engine-based. This includes books, opening databases (including the Chess.com Explorer) for [www.chess.com/openings|opening moves], and thematic games (though not their engine analyses). Tablebases are NOT allowed. You may not consult an engine, or another human, to provide an opinion on the opening database, tablebases, self-preparation or analysis that would relate to a particular game-in-progress on Chess.com." Also when you play daily, chess.com even provides a place where you can write notes. The only things that aren't allowed are engine analysis, endgame tablebases, and getting input from others on a game in progress.

That 1% of doubt...

Has this site addressed the issue? Yes, by banning when they determine beyond what they consider a "reasonable doubt". Sounds like a courtroom (do they have real judges?)

Why would I ask anyone (or an engine) about a line in the (example) Catalan when I can use a very good book written by a GM and a database of GM games including similar endings and then refer to an endgame book or 2? To the software they use...it will look like "assistance" (which it is imo). There's a point where you should draw the line. I think it's when you enter a middlegame or an early endgame.

As I eluded, they have no idea what everyone is using for refence material and books nowadays are written using engines to verify "evaluations" of positions.

I'm a member of the "cheating forum" club, where topics like this are brought up regularly. I am by no means a master at cheat detection, but the moderator of the group and many of the long-time members are. Because detailed comments on cheating should only occur in that group and not in the public forums I won't say too much. But several of the most experienced folks there will say that there is a still a noticeable difference to experienced cheat detectors between play inspired by even very detailed notes, books, and review of games vs engine play.

I'm sure there is at some point. I doubt it's move 10 though. There's no 100% method. People have been guilty of higher crimes with less evidence and the prisons are full of innocent people if you listen to their side.

I still wouldn't push it until I couldn't find any game or published analysis line to follow. I don't see the purpose of it.

But I'll leave the subject alone