Major Proposed Change: Ratings Cap Above 2400 for Unverified Players

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Avatar of waffllemaster
IMDeviate wrote:
ReasonableDoubt wrote:

I flat out don't believe it.  I'm starting to get worried about the detection methods on chess.com as it seems innocents are being banned.  Again, I'm not paranoid, but I'm almost afraid to play sharp openings because of a false positive engine detection by chess.com.  What I mean is that (although my corr. rating took a dive-bomb after withdrawing from a tournament because of having too many games to keep up with) I'm still somewhat scared of the thought that playing tactical forced lines could lead to account closure.  What I mean is that if I play a 1500 in the Sicilian Dragon, and they make a bad mistake, I generally have a forced tactical win.  My engine match-up for a game that would follow that pattern would be 100% (book lines, and then tactical sequence).  I'm 99% sure that Fezzik wasn't cheating, and I'm very concerned about detection methods.


The detection method will ding you for "obvious" moves (forced escape from check, forced recaptures, only legal move and other obvious moves) because they will match the engine's 1st choice 100%. Of course some moves will be obvious to everyone, but the definition of obvious depends to some extent on the strength of the player you are evaluating, and the strength of the person doing the evaluation. 

Playing forced tactical lines won't get you into trouble though, unless you're making moves that happen to be the #1, #2 or #3 choice of whatever engine is spying on your games more than about 60,70 or 80% of the time respectively.

Strong OTB GM's and strong correspondence players can exceed these percentages in a game or series of games but the "theory" behind the cheating methodology is that correspondence players are incapable of being good chess players without help. I'm not sure where that theory originated and I don't agree with it, but yes it's possible that innocent players can get busted by this method.


Right.

Not in any length and not against equal opposition.

This is why it takes many games to be banned using this method (note chess.com doesn't disclose it's detection method).

No past WC or pre-computer age CC player has ever exceeded the established benchmarks over a series of games simply because the benchmarks were set by these players themselves (and are surprisingly consistent throughout history).

Avatar of waffllemaster
IMDeviate wrote:

What I said was the "theory" is that correspondence players are not capable of being good chess players without help. It's based in part on the belief that if you're not an OTB titled player, you're dirt.

I don't agree with this theory and as you know statistics can be manipulated until the result you want is obtained. The "methodology" used and benchmarks you cite (which are not really benchmarks but the opinions of some patzer amateur statisticians) can be fine tuned in several places to be more accurate (or alternatively to yield the results you want). It's all just someone's theory.

I believe cheating is a problem that needs to be addressed, and not just engine use but live chess lag cheats too. That said I don't believe the methods used on chess.com are 100% accurate. I have no doubt that clean players get banned, and cheaters missed. 

Nor do I believe that all cheaters will be caught one day and we'll have a clean chess experience on this site.

But this thread was originally about the ratings cap - which I think is silly. You can't label someone a cheat because of their rating or acheivements or some 6 second puzzle, or the fact they don't have an OTB title. You have to evaluate their games in a fair and objective manner. I'm not sure such a method for evaluation exists.


I agree.

That's not what the rating cap does.  It's to discourage cheaters not to punish strong players.  If chess.com wanted to label them cheats they would have a mass banning of them all.

I agree.  But the problem is the site is too big.  There are too many games for the staff to sort though in a fair and objective way.

I think this is part of the reason the rating cap is being considered.  There is no perfect method and there is no chess website 100% clean of cheaters.  The rating cap isn't perfect and its not an instant solution, but I think it stands to do much more good than harm.

Avatar of ivandh

I want to use pretty colors too.

Avatar of waffllemaster
ivandh wrote:

I want to use pretty colors too.


Hehehe  :)

Avatar of Hortons

*~*~* J

Avatar of xxdanielxx

I would object to this, even though i'm not near 2400 now, the backlash of such a change would probabally hit us lower rated players.

However, I haven't found so many higher rated players on this site so maybe won't have such an effect.

Avatar of MrMonkeyWrench
[COMMENT DELETED]
Avatar of MAttos_12

What is this cap supposed to solve?  Players over 2400 are subject to computer testing of their games, so if an untitled player gets to 2400 by cheating it would be pretty certain that they would be caught.  Wheres the issue?

Avatar of waffllemaster
Godspawn wrote:
xxdanielxx wrote:

I would object to this, even though i'm not near 2400 now, the backlash of such a change would probabally hit us lower rated players.

However, I haven't found so many higher rated players on this site so maybe won't have such an effect.


All the 2400 cap is gonna do is push the cheaters down a level.  And i seriously doubt chess.com is going to invest the time and energy into investigating a suspected 1500 cheater.

As i have said in the past, and sadly i think its going to come true.  Chess.com is going to turn into yahoo chess.


It's rare I find a cheater on either Yahoo! or here... if that's what you mean.

Maybe it's my manly smell... cheaters for whatever reason must avoid me and only pray upon those who question the solution to sunday's daily puzzle Wink

Avatar of GatheredDust

I've got an idea! (If this was posted anywhere else in the forum, I didn't look carefully enough) What if chess.com required valid personal info (e.g. a credit card) to sign up? Not only would that cut down on cheaters, but it would also cut down on trolls using various fake alibis.

Avatar of goldendog
IMDeviate wrote

And no, obvious moves are not discarded - they probably should be, but they are not.


A few months ago LegoPirateSenior was doing a lot of grunt work on obvious/non-obvious move analysis within the Top 3 methodology.

It was looking good but he had to move on to real life obligations. Staff greatly curbed the banning of the big boys at that time as well, so there was less motivation to continue.

Should obvious moves be discarded? We certainly should have a tool that does so, and we ought to include its results side-by-side with the classsical T3 methodology that does not exclude them.

As for the methods staff uses, we can't say where they stop. All we know is that they use something like T3 in their cheater detection work.

Avatar of goldendog
LordNazgul wrote:

golden, I think it's the old Schack, if I can tell.


That would be amusing.

Avatar of waffllemaster
goldendog wrote:
LordNazgul wrote:

golden, I think it's the old Schack, if I can tell.


That would be amusing.


?

Avatar of MAttos_12

I'm just not really sure how people rated below 2400 can confidently claim that someone is cheating anyhow.  Somtimes people make mistakes, somtimes they play really well.  If someone looses their queen against me, then goes on to win, there seems little evidence that I could find that they turned to a computer, its quite probable that they just played well

Avatar of rooperi
MAttos_12 wrote:

I'm just not really sure how people rated below 2400 can confidently claim that someone is cheating anyhow.  Somtimes people make mistakes, somtimes they play really well.  If someone looses their queen against me, then goes on to win, there seems little evidence that I could find that they turned to a computer, its quite probable that they just played well


There's a difference between playing well, like a GM, and playing well, like Rybka.

Avatar of MAttos_12
rooperi wrote:
MAttos_12 wrote:

I'm just not really sure how people rated below 2400 can confidently claim that someone is cheating anyhow.  Somtimes people make mistakes, somtimes they play really well.  If someone looses their queen against me, then goes on to win, there seems little evidence that I could find that they turned to a computer, its quite probable that they just played well


There's a difference between playing well, like a GM, and playing well, like Rybka.


Whilst no doubt that is true, I don't really feel qualfied to make that judgement for certain.  Because I know that, OTB, I've played people rated about 800, and for three of four moves, by luck or moments of brilliance they have played perfect moves that I didn't see and take the game to a winning possition for them.  If I were playing that game over the net, maybe I'd think they were cheating, but I'd be wrong.  

 

I'm just not sure that I could make the call and it be much more than a guess!

Avatar of JFranklynWhitehead

Does this happen to be the reason why the very popular bullet player 'KNVB' was banned?
I spoke to him at chesscube and he seems to think the moderators never even told him why he was banned (something I thought was compulsary), they just said he was "unwelcome" here.
I for one would welcome him with both arms and I know many more would too, this place, for live chess, has become somewhat stale since he left. 

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