@Arisktotle #18 - I vaguely remember something similar in Reuben Fine's basic chess endings where he shows all the mates.
Thx! I am personally not all that enthousiastic about learning checkmate patterns. Some do, but I prefer the common denominator that one should not lose against 2 knights with a bare king!
Looking at the logic of the thing:
All of the 15 checkmate positions inherently have to have the two knights on unlike colour.
The last move of the attacker must have been a knight move giving check with the knight.
Therefore, all positions half move from checkmate, and all positions one move from checkmate, must have the two knights on the same colour.
Agree this is very well put indeed. And the practical effect is that a knight cannot go from covering a flight square of one colour to delivering mate on another square of the same colour (which a bishop *can* do, allowing the bishop and knight mate).
@Arisktotle #18 - I vaguely remember something similar in Reuben Fine's basic chess endings where he shows all the mates.
Thx! I am personally not all that enthousiastic about learning checkmate patterns. Some do, but I prefer the common denominator that one should not lose against 2 knights with a bare king!
Not losing with king and rook against king and one knight is easy, because there is only 1 checkmate pattern (and its reflections, total 8). Whereas a bare king against king and 2 knights has 15 different ways of getting checkmated. The first few of these 15 I examined had 4...5 positions half a move from checkmate. So I expect there are around a hundred positions where the bare king must not blunder into getting checkmated in one - 50 moves in a row.
And a blunder into illegal move loses the game just the same as being checkmated, at once in rabid chess and on second time in slow chess. Plus, the bare king running out of time before he has held the 2 knights off for 50 moves or 3-fold repetition loses the game all the same. So 17 legal ways of losing.
It´s therefore important to know the moves of king against two knights, that they can be performed quickly and correctly, without blundering into either checkmate or illegal move.
Yes, there are different ways of learning. I prefer to learn by strategic algorithm. This endgame requires 2 rules: (a) stay out of the corner if you can (b) stay away from the side if you can. These rules will keep you from being mated.
Yes, there are different ways of learning. I prefer to learn by strategic algorithm. This endgame requires 2 rules: (a) stay out of the corner if you can (b) stay away from the side if you can. These rules will keep you from being mated.
Indeed. If facing a knight and a bishop although you can be forced, keep away from the corner that can be attacked by the bishop.
I prefer to learn by strategic algorithm. This endgame requires 2 rules: (a) stay out of the corner if you can (b) stay away from the side if you can. These rules will keep you from being mated.
That´s actually of limited use.
It is true that king and 2 knights cannot deliver a midboard checkmate. Then again neither can king and queen!
King and 2 knights can chase a lone king to an edge/corner. They can also force a stalemate.
Now, what else can I deduce from the colour reasoning...
Since the lone king can only be checkmated in one from a position where the knights have the same colour, then when the knights have opposite colours, the king should not worry about checkmate, and concentrate on not making an illegal move.
Indeed. If facing a knight and a bishop although you can be forced, keep away from the corner that can be attacked by the bishop.
(also @jsaepuru) Yes. The point of the strategy is that we already know that the K+2N vs K ending is a draw. The only thing I add to that is a way to avoid making a mistake. The two rules achieve precisely that. Follow them on a move-by-move basis and you can't be mated!
The advantage of this method over different methods is that you never need to visualize beyond your own move. Just play any move away from the side and the corner, and if you can't do that, it doesn't matter what you play.
Obviously it can't work for the K+B+N vs K ending since it is a win for the bigger force. No strategy can keep you from being mated if your opponent plays well.
Obviously it can't work for the K+B+N vs K ending since it is a win for the bigger force. No strategy can keep you from being mated if your opponent plays well.
Whereas not getting mated by an opponent who plays poorly is a matter of tactics more than strategy.
Yes, there are different ways of learning. I prefer to learn by strategic algorithm. This endgame requires 2 rules: (a) stay out of the corner if you can (b) stay away from the side if you can. These rules will keep you from being mated.
Short, sweet, and 100% correct.
(also @jsaepuru) Yes. The point of the strategy is that we already know that the K+2N vs K ending is a draw. The only thing I add to that is a way to avoid making a mistake. The two rules achieve precisely that. Follow them on a move-by-move basis and you can't be mated!
The advantage of this method over different methods is that you never need to visualize beyond your own move. Just play any move away from the side and the corner, and if you can't do that, it doesn't matter what you play.
Incorrect.
The attacker with 2 knights CAN chase the defending king to edge/corner, no matter what defender does.
The attacker also CAN force a stalemate.
Avoiding edge/corner is therefore insufficient advice.
The point is that the defender can avoid getting checkmated by making correct moves around the corner/edge.
What the defender needs is advice on how to quickly spot the correct move from each position one move from checkmate.
You don't know what you are talking about. Stop being ignorant.
You can NEVER mate with 2 knights and a king. NEVER. Period.
Whatever the posts say ("if you don't make a mistake") is utterly wrong.
In a chess game, you will never get mated when your opponent has 2 knights and a king.
You can COMPOSE a position as in put the pieces on squares where they cannot reach with the rules of chess, but in a game it is impossible.
So stop firmly holding on to your ignorance and spreading misinformation. What you are talking about is studies; things that will NEVER happen in a game of chess.
Incorrect.
It is correct though, provided you read it correctly.
I didn't say you can avoid the corner, and I didn't say you can avoid the side. I said to avoid the corner if you can, and to avoid the side if you can.
That means that if you can't avoid the corner, you just go to the corner and if you can't avoid the side then you just go to the side. And miraculously, without any calculation, then you can't be mated! If you think that is untrue, please provide an example! (note I never said anything about avoiding stalemate; why would anyone care?)
You can COMPOSE a position as in put the pieces on squares where they cannot reach with the rules of chess, but in a game it is impossible.
Did you know it is illegal to compose a study position that is impossible in a game? How does that fit in with your premise?
Another simple conclusion to make:
In order to have a mate in one, not only do the two attacking knights have to be on the same colour: they also have to be on the same colour as the defending king!
You can NEVER mate with 2 knights and a king. NEVER. Period.
So stop firmly holding on to your ignorance and spreading misinformation.
There's quite a bit of that going on here, isn't there.
(also @jsaepuru) Yes. The point of the strategy is that we already know that the K+2N vs K ending is a draw. The only thing I add to that is a way to avoid making a mistake. The two rules achieve precisely that. Follow them on a move-by-move basis and you can't be mated!
The advantage of this method over different methods is that you never need to visualize beyond your own move. Just play any move away from the side and the corner, and if you can't do that, it doesn't matter what you play.
Incorrect.
The attacker with 2 knights CAN chase the defending king to edge/corner, no matter what defender does.
The attacker also CAN force a stalemate.
Avoiding edge/corner is therefore insufficient advice.
The point is that the defender can avoid getting checkmated by making correct moves around the corner/edge.
What the defender needs is advice on how to quickly spot the correct move from each position one move from checkmate.
True, but in practical terms "don't go into the corner unless you are forced, and don't stay in the corner unless you are forced" will absolutely guarantee that you cannot be mated. The only way that you can go to the corner and be mated next turn is if you were also left the alternative of not going to the corner, and in that case, exercising the "don't go in the corner" alternative will certainly save you.
1.Nf7 Kf8 2.Nd6 Kg7 3.Kf5 Kh6 4.Ne8 Kh7 5.Kg5 Kg8 6.Kf6 Kh7 7.Nd6 Kh6 8.Nf7+ Kh7 9.Nfe5 Kg8 10.Ng6 Kh7 11.Ne7 Kh6 12.Ng8+ Kh5 13. Kf5 Kh4 14.Nf6 Kh3 15.Ke5! Kg3 16.Ke4 Kh3 17.Kf3 Kh4 18.Kf4 Kh3 19.Ne4 Kh4 20.Ng3 Kh3 21.Nf5 Kg2 22.Kg4 Kh2 23.Nh4 Kg1 24. Kg3 Kf1 25.Kf3 Kg1 26. Ng2 Kh2 27.Nf4 Kg1 28.Ke2 Kh2 29.Kf2 Kh1 30. Ne5! d3 31.Ng4! d2 32.Ne2 d1N+ 33.Kg3 Ne3 34.Nf2#
@Arisktotle #18 - I vaguely remember something similar in Reuben Fine's basic chess endings where he shows all the mates.