How to Secure a Won Game

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Avatar of Hammerschlag
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Avatar of Shakaali

I think black should be winning (with proper play of course). Black has a healthy extra pawn (means that white has no compensation). This is not always enough to win but here black also has another significant advantage in the form of a central pawn majority. Because of this I would not hurry with exchanges and ending but rather see first if white can be forced into making further concessions during the middlegame. I would not make any long term plans just yet. I think first of all black should try to improve her pieces.

As you mentioned, d5 or Bf6 look like logical candidates. I prefer Bf6 taking control of the long diagonal and seeing where white's queen goes. After Bf6 both black bishops look somewhat more active than their white counterparts and there also might be ideas like Nc3 in the near future. Instead d5 would block the diagonal for Bb7 and make black's pawns less flexible.

Avatar of Hammerschlag
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Avatar of Loomis
Hammerschlag wrote:

I am not convince that Bf6 first is best because of Ne5 blocking the pawn advance in the center; if d6, Nd7 trades the Knight for the B(f6)


Tactics will always rule.

1. ... Bf6 2. Ne5 d6 3. Nd7 Bxb2 4. Nxb6 Bxc1 5. Nxa8 6. Bxe3

black is up a piece.

Avatar of muffmouf
The position looks nice for black, however I'm not really sure if perfect play on both sides would win or draw. I think you were right in planning to go after whites weak B pawn and trying to improve your d pawn. That points to a few possible candidate moves: Bf6 (removing a defender of the b pawn, gains some tempo), d6 (secures your c pawn, prevents Ne5, gains some protection, but all at the expense of bishop activity), d5 (solidifies the center but greatly weakens your white bishop), and maaaaybe Bc6 (makes use of the pin to pile up on the b pawn, however I'm not sure of any tactics could punish that or how to handle Re1...worth taking a look at though) Personally, I think Bf6 may be the best choice for a win, possibly messing up whites remaining pawn structure. 1. ...Bf6 2. Qc2 Nc3 3. Qd2 Bxf3 4. gxf3 (4. Bxf3 Qxb5) from here your white square bishop can pivot on d5, your knight can trade for whites bishop if you like, and white will have doubled pawns and two additional isolated pawns.
Avatar of Hammerschlag
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Avatar of orangehonda

I'm surprised at other's evaluations, looking at the position my first reaction is to evaluate black is winning.  Black has connected passers, a good structure, and control over the only open file.  White has an isolated b pawn and is down a pawn.  The moves Bd5 and Bf6 stand out -- as well as some plan trying to activate the queen on b6.  I think with best play black should win.

I don't know about specific moves, but after Bd5 (threatening Ra2) and Bf6 maybe the rook is ready to infiltrate or maybe d6 is a nice consolidating move.

Avatar of muffmouf
muffmouf I'm not sure if Bf6 would actually force the Queen off the b-file though; Qb1 is still possible; actually it looks like Qb3 is also possible.

Both moves are possible but I think Qd2 is the better response for white.

1. ...Bf6 2. Qb1 Ra1 3. Qc2 Rxc1 4. Qxc1 Nc3 seems very promising for black

Qb3 is a little less predictable but I believe ...d5 adds a lot of pressure to white, setting up for d4 or possibly even c4 (depending on white's response). d4 opens up Nc3 possibilities as well as Bd5. I'm sure its not long before the b pawn can be picked off. Although I'm not 100% sure, I think this only improves black's position.

Avatar of Hammerschlag
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Avatar of orangehonda
Hammerschlag wrote:
orangehonda wrote:

I'm surprised at other's evaluations, looking at the position my first reaction is to evaluate black is winning.  Black has connected passers, a good structure, and control over the only open file.  White has an isolated b pawn and is down a pawn.  The moves Bd5 and Bf6 stand out -- as well as some plan trying to activate the queen on b6.  I think with best play black should win.

I don't know about specific moves, but after Bd5 (threatening Ra2) and Bf6 maybe the rook is ready to infiltrate or maybe d6 is a nice consolidating move.


 I think everyone is in agreement that Black has the upper hand, +1 in material and a good position. What I was wonder was the best continuation for Black to secure the win; what plans should Black undertake first...Bf6 has been suggested and it looks good, although your suggestion of Bd5, which has not been suggested also looks good (now that you mentioned it). What we are trying to determine is the "best" way.


Looking for the best way? That would be pretty hard/impossible for me.  Black can almost seek play on each area of the board (ok, to a GM, maybe only 1 area is obvious, but to someone like me...).

So at times like this, when a class player is unsure, maybe the pertinent question is where is white strong.  The "best" (or at least most natural way) to nurture an advantage (especially one as static as a material advantage) is simply working to reduce your opponent's play.  Maybe not how a GM would handle this specific position, but certainly a safe and practical way of playing. (as well as fitting in perfectly with the title of this topic).

So lets look at white's advantages.  The b pawn is a passer and gives white a space advantage on that side.  His pieces aren't quite as active, but are well centralized.  The e3 bishop is probably his best piece.  The queen has a nice diagonal and the king is safe.  White's advantages are also black's weaknesses, so lets quickly look for them.  The queen is a poor blockader, the b7 bishop is probably his worst piece and... well, that's about all I can find Smile

This suggests black's most effective plan would be seeking play on the queenside... and as I look at the position now that seems to make sense.  Black's play specifically should then 1) pressure the b pawn 2) work to get his queen/b7 bishop active and/or 3) undermine the e3 bishop's effectiveness.

So this is where I start thinking up crazy repositioning maneuvers like Nf6 Nd5 (hits the bishop) d6 Bc8 Bd7 and we have a position where moves like Nc7 and Rb8 threaten to win the b pawn immediately.

That's 5 prep moves though, so you'd have to work out the correct move order and find white's responses.  Note the threat on the b pawn is icing on the cake.  The most basic criteria for any move that isn't forcing the win of material should be that it makes sense in the given position (not mindless, lets take this open file, lets take this long diagonal, lets push our passed pawn and see what happens).  After you identify the area of the board, and each sides advantages and weaknesses, all your moves will center around what you've evaluated.  If you can find such moves, you'll always be making progress (whether it happens to threaten something or not).

In a blitz game (i.e. the first thing that popped in my head), I may try something a little crazy like Bd6 with Qd8-f6 (simultaneously activating my queen and challenging white's good queen).  If white doesn't trade, you have Bf4 for a favorable bishop trade after which Rf8 and suddenly you have action on the kingside.  (Actually that doesn't sound half bad now that I type it out lol).

Now a GM may look at this position and start rolling the pawns up the board or even something completely different.  My plan is just a practical-minded evaluation by a class player.  If you really are looking for the "best" way, then you should probably load it into stockfish or rybka and see what happens Tongue out

Avatar of orangehonda

Heh, I had a funny idea with the diagrams, want to see if it works.


And the 2nd one

Heh, that's fun Tongue out
Avatar of JG27Pyth

Um, Orangehonda, are you feeling okay?

 

FWIW I don't understand the discussion of "black needing a plan" -- isn't the plan obvious? Black has connected passed pawns. White has an isolated passed pawn. Isn't the plan to win the White pawn, and advance the connected black passers?

What's needed is technique and calculation/accuracy. There's a lot of firepower left on a wide open board and lots of ways to go wrong. It's the kind of position I excell at losing! Black has the kind of "won" game that can easily be lost on one tactical oversight.

Avatar of orangehonda
JG27Pyth wrote:

Um, Orangehonda, are you feeling okay?

 

FWIW I don't understand the discussion of "black needing a plan" -- isn't the plan obvious? Black has connected passed pawns. White has an isolated passed pawn. Isn't the plan to win the White pawn, and advance the connected black passers?

What's needed is technique and calculation/accuracy. There's a lot of firepower left on a wide open board and lots of ways to go wrong. It's the kind of position I excell at losing! Black has the kind of "won" game that can easily be lost on one tactical oversight.


Well I didn't even see a way to win the pawn until I started breaking it down like that and trying to bring all the pieces into the game.  Sure you'd want to win it if you can, but if you can't what then?

You admit you can easily lose these kinds of positions but also say black doesn't need a plan.  Ok, maybe not related Smile but I'm of the opinion that grabbing long diagonals and pushing passed pawns without first evaluating things and with the hope that the pressure mounts in a way that a combinations finally appears is too lazy.  My idea for tournament moves is they have to 1) be sound tactically and 2) be sound within the needs of the position... and I think of both as equally important.  If a move drops a knight obviously you wont consider it... but to me if a move doesn't fit in with how I evaluate things, I also think of that move as unconscionable.

It's funny, after my post, I have the opposite impression actually, that the only real way for black to go wrong would be to push his pawns too early.  I don't see that white has prospects for any play (especially if the dark bishop is traded or it's activity reduced) and so black should have many ways (i.e. move orders) to win with little to no risk for himself.  I think he may even be able to start out very slowly with moves like d6 followed by h6 just to take away some squares.

-------------

Anyway, there are obviously very strong players who wouldn't play this way (spelling it all out to themselves to try and make a plan) but I do think their moves can be categorized under my style/understanding, which is all that matters to me.  Which is to say, it may just be difference in style that we may not agree on this position.

Avatar of JG27Pyth

Sorry Orangehonda, my humor went wide of the mark I think, I wasn't clear... when I asked if you were feeling okay it was a joking reference to your diagrams in which the K keeps moving to g1 again and again, nothing more. I don't disagree with your assessment of the position, in fact I agree completely. My point was not about Black "not needing a plan" -- only that the plan, the general plan is IMO pretty clear... the specfic plan, the execution, is where potential problems lie. It's very easy to announce (as I have) "I'm going to promote my passed pawn" and another thing to do it accurately while preventing counterplay.

We're seeing the same position, I think. 

Avatar of orangehonda

Ok.  I feel like it's partly my fault though, sometimes I'm too literal and miss the humor Smile

Avatar of Hammerschlag
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Avatar of Joe_The_Biden

Just some thoughts.

Avatar of orangehonda

You know what they say, see a trade, offer a trade.  Offered a trade, make the trade Wink

Avatar of kco

and "a plan is better than no plan"

Avatar of kco

is still better than nothing :-)

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