It IS possible to mate with two knights and a king!

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ilmago

Thanks, Dragec, I think this clarifies most of my open questions. Smile

So the "insufficient mating material" criterion is invalid in all cases in which a forced win can be demonstrated.

Thanks also for your third link (USCF 2004 blitz rules) which specifies quite some additional cases in which a blitz game will be regarded as a draw (according to 8. in these rules).

Dragec

Just a small comment, not completely related to this thread(I will post it to other draw/win thread as well), I think one can not only think of 6.9. Fide when talking about win/draw on time.

I think 6.9 in all discussion is to be analysed together with Fide 10.2. in order to have a clear picture, and that the ruling would be a fair one Cool

ilmago

Dragec, Fide 10.2 applies only to quickplay finish scenarios, of course.

Dragec

Yes, but discussion was regarding all live games, and quickplay obviously applies for normal and rapid games.

ilmago

I would not generalize that much.

Quickplay finish rules do not apply as soon as there are increments, and their application relies heavily on human arbiters.

Dragec

The funny  and shuffling king games were just example of games with no increments, but forget it, I just saw that the debate is almost ended in the other thread. Undecided

pattrik

It's impossible to force a mate with 2N+K vs. K. You can only get mate if your opponent blunders. Trust me. I have tried this before, and all of the times I got a draw by the 50 moves rule.

ruachessnut2

A pawn is enough to force mate IF you queen it.

ilmago

pattrik, I think you may have forgotten to read post #8 of this thread.

7thSense

Is it possible to force mate with 3 knights then? Or 3 bishops? Or 2 knights, 1 bishop? Or 2 bishops, 1 knight? (Assuming you advance a pawn into a minor)

ilmago

yes, it is. (provided the three bishops are not all of the same colour.)

Azukikuru

Two minor pieces? Pfft... I can do it with just ONE PAWN, and even if my opponent has an additional bishop for defense!

SimonSeirup

Its possible to set a mate up with 2 knight king vs king. But you cant really mate.

This is draw:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But its of course possible to mate with Knight, Bishop, King vs King, And Bishop, Bishop, King vs King.
This is like the first chapter in FCE.

FifthDimension

You can only checkmate with two knights if your opponent is trying to lose, two bishops is possible if they DO NOT want to lose.

XeonGrey

I want to say, the moves made by black king in the 2 knight endings and 2 bishops endings are not the best move!

ilmago

5D, you can also checkmate your opponent with two knights in nice forced sequences which can follow the capture of the last piece. This often makes for motives of beautiful studies :-)

hvhvhnhnhnnvv

The two nights mate is not in anyway forced. Lol - your opponent has to volutarily place his king in the exact place in the exact setup where he can be mated. But I guess the fact that two nights is technically enough to check mate is relevant in some rulings??!!! 

Niven42

And of course, you should never ask your opponent to draw.  Just keep playing with 2 knights until the sun enters the red dwarf stage about a billion years from now.  If your opponent dies before you do, declare a win on time.

adimare
7thSense wrote:

Is it possible to force mate with 3 knights then? Or 3 bishops? Or 2 knights, 1 bishop? Or 2 bishops, 1 knight? (Assuming you advance a pawn into a minor)


Since it's possible to force a mate with 2 bishops. It's also possible to force a mate with 3, same applies to 2 bishops and a knight. Also, since it's possible to force mate with a knight and a bishop, it's possible to force mate with 2 bishops and 1 knight.

Loomis
samredway wrote:

The two nights mate is not in anyway forced. Lol - your opponent has to volutarily place his king ...


Mate in 3