Mate with a knight and bishop?

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Avatar of playerafar
GoogleDestroyer wrote:
playerafar wrote:

There's some other useful buttons too.
I don't know what the 'upvote' button is.

This post has 3 upvotes

Yes - that post appears to be the only one in the entire forum with upvotes.
Perhaps its because when people read my post - they clicked the upvote to see what happens !  happy.png
But there's a 'sort' button at the beginning.
I'll try that now.

Avatar of technical_knockout

forums --> topics --> threads --> pages.

we're on page 3 of a knight & bishop mate thread.

Avatar of playerafar
technical_knockout wrote:

checked & yes that was accurate.

There's 'sort by relevance' at the beginning - my post is now at the top on that.
I did delete some of my posts.  I do that if they prove to be too inaccurate.
I'll have to delete a couple more.
Too far off the mark.  Speculation was useful temporarily but I don't want to mislead readers.

Note that the 'sort by relevance' moves post 1 off the top.
Maybe they should have made it so that the opening post is always on top.

Avatar of playerafar
technical_knockout wrote:

not sure but it would make sense if it had to do with people who sort by relevance:  posts with the most 'upvotes' get pushed to the top?

Yes.  You're right.
I'm wondering if they should have made it with keeping post 1 on top.
But - that could have drawbacks too.  

Avatar of technical_knockout

that would be a good suggestion to make.

Avatar of playerafar
technical_knockout wrote:

that would be a good suggestion to make.

I was thinking that but then thought some more 
and realized that if people who have hit 'newest' or 'relevance' and still see post 1 at the top they might be disappointed or think the feature isn't working.
So this looks like a very good idea.
People can get a better sense of the thread by hitting newest as well as oldest.
As to how 'relevance' will work out - time will tell.

Avatar of many_hanging_pieces
playerafar wrote:
GoogleDestroyer wrote:

This is the hardest checkmate to be done

Queen versus rook is no picnic.
Its a book win - but the 'theory' is not well articulated.  Not that I know of.
The good news is that the side with the rook blunders much more often than the side with the Queen.
The rook has to stay close to his King.
Plus the defending King has to try to avoid the edge of the board and the corners.  
The attacking King has to reduce or handle rook-checks and avoid pins and skewers.  Those last two he should be able to do easily.
Maybe there now is a good description of the process available on the net. 
I actually found N+B easier than Q versus rook !  Moreso after being told about 'Deletang's triangles'.  
Which I also liked more - than the 'W' method for N+B.  

It's interesting that you say this, as I think there is an element of truth in this.

It is not hugely difficult (relatively speaking) to force the king to the edge of the board with the bishop and knight, when there are two well known methods to force the king to the 'right' corner (Deletang's triangles and the W method), which makes it a bit easier to learn.

With the Q v R ending there are not as many resources saying how to win with the queen. There is the well known Philidor position in this ending (which is a win with either side to move, as Black must separate the king and rook, allowing them to be forked in a few moves), but not a lot of resources saying how to reach the Philidor position. Often defenders will keep their king and rook close together to avoid any forks.

On a brighter side, even grandmasters have messed up these endings...

Avatar of many_hanging_pieces
GoogleDestroyer wrote:
playerafar wrote:

@GoogleDestroyer
The "" quote button can be used at top right if you want -
to quote previous posts.   

Another very difficult ending is Rook and Bishop versus Rook.
Some GM games finish that way.
Its not always a win for the side with the bishop.
Some of the positions are actually book draws.
And like many of the classic endings - its not simple theory there.

Everybody usually remembers how to mate with K+R versus King !
Everybody usually can mate with K+Q versus K. 
Even without previous study.
But shockingly many don't know that you don't need the opposition to win with sixth rank King + pawn against lone King.  (provided its not an edge-pawn)



I know that I should use “” quote button, but for some reasons it appears like this. A bug probably. I thought it only appears for me, but it seems for others too. Also what about rook + knight versus rook? I believe knight is quite annoying when it comes to fork….

Rook and knight vs rook is considered easier to draw compared to rook and bishop vs rook. The defending side is normally fine unless their king is in a corner.

Avatar of technical_knockout

'derek grimmell' on youtube for Q vs R.

Avatar of playerafar

Yes - and I'm thinking grandmasters have failed to win with rook and bishop versus rook - more than with Queen versus rook.  
Defenders in Q versus rook must also avoid skewers and pins as well as forks.  But the skewers and pins mostly wont work if the King and rook stay close together.

Avatar of technical_knockout

stalemate traps & 50-move draws galore in Q vs R if you don't understand it well.

Avatar of playerafar

Rook and knight versus rook I would think is a book draw unless the side with the knight has something tactically immediate. 
The knight simply cannot support the rook from a distance in a way that the bishop can.
And in N+B versus lone King - the bishop does more of the 'work' than the knight.
Consider that the two bishops ending is a book win that's not that difficult -
but the two knights ending is a book draw unless the defender blunders or there's something like an immediate mate.
Perhaps there are positions with 2 knights and nothing else where the defending King is on move but can't draw.  I haven't checked on the net.

 

Avatar of playerafar
technical_knockout wrote:

stalemate traps & 50-move draws galore in Q vs R if you don't understand it well.

Yes - most of the draws are probably 50 movers.

Avatar of many_hanging_pieces
playerafar wrote:

Yes - and I'm thinking grandmasters have failed to win with rook and bishop versus rook - more than with Queen versus rook.  
Defenders in Q versus rook must also avoid skewers and pins as well as forks.  But the skewers and pins mostly wont work if the King and rook stay close together.

There are some well known drawing defenses in the rook and bishop vs rook ending, but these require accurate play, when sometimes only one move draws.

Avatar of playerafar

Yes - like with Queen versus rook (a book win) - the defender might blunder anyway and make it easier.
With rook and bishop versus rook - many of the positions are in fact book draws - but again - the defender might blunder.
And even in the book wins - you'd want him to blunder perchance !
I can hardly recall the theory at all.

Avatar of many_hanging_pieces
playerafar wrote:
technical_knockout wrote:

stalemate traps & 50-move draws galore in Q vs R if you don't understand it well.

Yes - most of the draws are probably 50 movers.

If the king and queen are poorly placed, the rook can sometimes draw by perpetual check (due to pin/skewer ideas). However, drawing by the 50 move rule (as you have pointed out) is much more likely.

Avatar of playerafar

I agree.  Technically the plus side can blunder too - but the pressure is on the defender.  Usually.  Very strong players often pull 'swindles' - but it would be extra-rare that they would be defending such positions - more often its the weaker player that's already cooked well done.

Avatar of playerafar

which means its a draw anyway.  
Is it technically drawn to begin with because ... ?
well better to ask that if the white king is somewhere particular.  

Avatar of playerafar

Rook and knight versus Queen I would think is usually a draw ?
Not sure - perhaps computers have found otherwise.  

Avatar of GoogleSupporter
playerafar wrote:

Rook and knight versus Queen I would think is usually a draw ?
Not sure - perhaps computers have found otherwise.  

Knight is the most annoying piece when it comes to fork