How to react to Black Pawns Triangle defense

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Avatar of ThrillerFan
tygxc wrote:

1) Is it correct in Chess says that White always do an "Opening" and a Black always a "defense"?
+ Yes, White plays Ruy Lopez Opening, Italian Opening, Black plays Sicilian Defence, French Defence, Nimzovich Indidian Defence, King's Indian Defence etc. It is just a convention.

2) What is the name of this defense?
For the names: first is Damiano Defence, second is Philidor, third is French/Caro-Kann Hybrid. The names do not matter. The moves are no good.

3) How to react to this defense?
1st game 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 f6? 3 Nxe5!
2nd game 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 f6? 4 Bc4 and all white squares on the black camp are weak
3rd game 1 e4 e6 2 d4 d5 3 Nc3 c6? 4 Bd3 with a big lead in development

4) What is the difference when this triangle has the vertex in front of the King and in front of the Queen?
c6-d5-e6 is not as weak as d6-e5-f6
c6 blocks the natural move Nc6, e6 blocks the diagonal of Bc8
d6 blocks the natural move Nf6, d6 blocks the diagonal of Bf8, f6 also weakens the white squares e6 and g6; the black king is unsafe

 

#1 is Wrong!  Not everything White plays is an "Opening".  In fact, the name is driven by which side makes the final deciding move of what opening it is whether it is an Opening, Defense, SYSTEM, ATTACK, GAMBIT, etc.

 

So NO!  Not everything White plays is an opening and everything Black plays is a defense.  Simply WRONG!

 

Case in point!

 

A)  1.e4 (This does not define any opening or attack) e6 (This defines the Opening and is hence a DEFENSE, namely the FRENCH DEFENSE

 

B)  1.d4 (Undefined) Nf6 (Still undefined) 2.Nf3 (still undefined) e6 (Still undefined) and now:

3.Bg5 is the Torre ATTACK

3.Bf4 is the London SYSTEM

3.e3 is the Colle SYSTEM

 

C) 1.e4 (undefined) e5 (undefined) 2.Nf3 (undefined) Nc6 (undefined - 2...Nf6 would be the Russian DEFENSE) 3.Bb5 is the Spanish OPENING

 

D) 1.e4 e5 2.f4 is the King's GAMBIT

 

E) 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 is the Latvian GAMBIT!

 

 

So notice that the name is defined by who makes the DEFINING move of the opening.

 

If it is defined by White's move, It can be an Opening, Attack, System, Gambit, or have no suffix (the Catalan is simply, "The Catalan")

 

If it is defined by Black's move, it can be a Defense or a Gambit.

 

As far as #4 is concerned, How strong or weak c6-d5-e6 is depends on what White has played.

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 is actually known as The Triangle.  It is an offshoot of the Semi-Slav with the flexibility of still playing the Stonewall Dutch if 4.e3 (Black can also still play the Semi-Slav with 4...Nf6), and the Noteboom (4...dxc4) against 4.Nc3.

 

Outside of this, all of those Triangle responses are Garbage except the Fantasy Variation of the Caro-Kann (1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.f3 e6).

 

Case in point:

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c6 - Why?  Your d5-point is secure given White's advance of e5.  3...c6 is an utter waste of time.  Black should hit White's center immediately with 3...c5 or look to trade Bishops with 3...b6.  3...c6 is just idiotic and Bad for Black.

 

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f6 - As mentioned, this severely weakens the light squares, but it also serves no purpose as it simply takes over the square that the Knight belongs on.

 

 

The thing the OP needs to do is stop looking at the shape that the pieces make, and instead look for squares that are in White's control, squares that are in Black's control, and weaknesses.

 

Example:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.e5 Nfd7 6.Bxe7 Qxe7 7.f4 O-O 8.Nf3 c5.

 

The e5 square is completely in WHITE'S control right now.

The e4 square, while not occupied, is completely in BLACK'S control right now.

 

Black can attack e5 with ...f6 while White can attack e4 with f3.  Therefore, while these squares are each controlled currently by one side, they are not weaknesses.

 

However, with Black having pushed e6, d5, and c5, and the dark squared Bishops traded off, the d6-Square for Black is a WEAKNESS.  Black must use other means to fight this square, like play ...a6 and maintain the pawn on d5 to not let a knight in.  If a Knight does get in, undermine e5 (Attack what protects the knight on d6.)

 

What the OP needs is a book on Strategy, not Openings.

Avatar of blueemu
sasadangelo wrote:

Thank you, everyone. Blueemi I see this game on Internet as a defense. Quite complicated but it's clear. However, I have a doubt. On the Internet, a classical Damiano defense is: e4, e5, Nf3, f6 ... and then not necessarily the d6 of my opponent  like in this game:

https://www.chess.com/game/live/30494370735

Considering this small difference we can still talk about Damiano's defense? I ask this just to understand if I really need to focus on Damiano's defense to neutralize this recurring defense I noticed during my game.

White will normally answer 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 f6 with 3. Nxe5 as given in my post above.

Avatar of tygxc

#21
Defining move by white = opening, defining move by black = defence.
Sacrifice of a pawn = gambit.

Avatar of sasadangelo

Thanks

Avatar of ThrillerFan
tygxc wrote:

#21
Defining move by white = opening, defining move by black = defence.
Sacrifice of a pawn = gambit.

 

If You define moves by White as an "Opening", then explain the following that are not labeled as "Openings" but rather Systems, Attacks, Games, or nothing beyond the name?

 

Colle SYSTEM

London SYSTEM

Torre ATTACK

King's Indian ATTACK

The CATALAN

Scotch GAME

Italian GAME

RUY LOPEZ (When listed as the Spanish, it is the Spanish Opening, but the Ruy Lopez is simply THE Ruy Lopez!)

Trompowsky ATTACK

The VERESOV

Jobava ATTACK

The ORANGUTAN

The GROB

 

SMH!

Avatar of tygxc

#25

Colle SYSTEM: System is a term to denote various move orders to reach the same setup

London SYSTEM: System is a term to denote various move orders to reach the same setup

Torre ATTACK: Attack is a term for a reverse defence played by white with an extra tempo

King's Indian ATTACK: Attack is a term for a reverse defence played by white with an extra tempo

The CATALAN: just shorthand for Catalan opening

Scotch GAME: also Scotch opening

Italian GAME: also Italian opening, or Giuoco Piano. Game is the translation of the Italian giuoco. This was first mentioned in manuscripts by Greco in the 17th century.

RUY LOPEZ (When listed as the Spanish, it is the Spanish Opening, but the Ruy Lopez is simply THE Ruy Lopez!): Also Spanish game

Trompowsky ATTACK: Attack is a term for a reverse defence played by white with an extra tempo

The VERESOV: Richter–Veresov Attack or Veresov Opening

Jobava ATTACK: Jobava London system

The ORANGUTAN: Sokolsky Opening or Orangutan Opening

The GROB: Grob's Attack

Avatar of blueemu

No offense, but arguing over the names of variations isn't chess.

It's stamp collecting.

Avatar of Sred
sasadangelo wrote:

Thank you, everyone. Blueemi I see this game on Internet as a defense. Quite complicated but it's clear. However, I have a doubt. On the Internet, a classical Damiano defense is: e4, e5, Nf3, f6 ... and then not necessarily the d6 of my opponent  like in this game:

https://www.chess.com/game/live/30494370735

Considering this small difference we can still talk about Damiano's defense? I ask this just to understand if I really need to focus on Damiano's defense to neutralize this recurring defense I noticed during my game.

Against Damiano's defense you can really play 3.Nxe5 as explained above. If the opponent takes the Knight, you will checkmate or win a decisive amount of material. You only need to know two or three forced lines here. If the opponent plays 3...Qe7 instead, retreat with 4.Nf3, give up the extra pawn and enjoy your development advantage and the exposed Black Queen.

If you focus on your elementary tactics as suggested, you will soon reach a level where almost nobody plays that stuff anyway.

Avatar of sasadangelo
Sred ha scritto:
sasadangelo wrote:

....

Against Damiano's defense, you can really play 3.Nxe5 as explained above. If the opponent takes the Knight, you will checkmate or win a decisive amount of material. You only need to know two or three forced lines here. If the opponent plays 3...Qe7 instead, retreat with 4.Nf3, give up the extra pawn and enjoy your development advantage and the exposed Black Queen.

If you focus on your elementary tactics as suggested, you will soon reach a level where almost nobody plays that stuff anyway.

 

Hi Sred,

Thank you for your reply. Now it's clear to me. Thank you also for tygxc to help us with a bit of terminology.

Avatar of RussBell

If the word "opening" appears in the name of the opening, that is an indication that White has played the initial move, or move sequence, which defines the initial character of the specific opening.  If the word "defense" (or "defence", if you prefer) appears in the name of the opening, it is because a move or sequence of moves performed by Black has defined the initial character of the opening.  Black, which always plays a move behind, is considered to be the defender in chess.  However, if neither the word "defense" nor the word "opening" appears in the name, then there is obviously no indication as to which player defines the initial character of the opening.

Improving Your Chess - Resources for Beginners and Beyond...

https://www.chess.com/blog/RussBell/improving-your-chess-resources-for-beginners-and-beyond

Avatar of orlock20

If you don't like black playing the pyramid pawn openings, play an opening with two pawns in the center such as the Queen's Gambit or the King's Gambit and either the opponent will move their most forward pawn to take one of your pawns or you will take their most forward pawn.  I like the Colle System turned into the Queen Gambit Declined although it sometimes turns into the Queen Gambit Accepted.

Also stop taking guarded pawns with back row pieces.

Avatar of tygxc

#31

"play an opening with two pawns in the center such as the Queen's Gambit"
That is not true: 1 d4 d5 2 c4 c6 3 Nc3 e6 is viable.
It is after 1 e4 that the triangle is weak.

Avatar of sasadangelo
orlock20 ha scritto:

Also, stop taking guarded pawns with back-row pieces.

 

What does it mean?

Avatar of Optimissed
sasadangelo wrote:

Hi all,

I am a newbie in chess.com as reported in other threads. I studied a few openings/defenses very basic and played with people around 0-500 rate I noticed some openings/defenses I wasn't aware of. One was Wayward Queen attack that was already discussed in two threads:

https://www.chess.com/forum/view/for-beginners/how-to-protect-from-queen-move

https://www.chess.com/forum/view/for-beginners/wayward-queen

Now please don't add comments here related to this opening. Another strange Black defense was when I am White and Black start to defend using a strange Pawns Triangles like this:

https://www.chess.com/game/live/30494370735
https://www.chess.com/game/live/30305952817

https://www.chess.com/game/live/29508579067

My questions are:

1) Is it correct in Chess says that White always do an "Opening" and a Black always a "defense"? I ask this because sometimes I read "Black opening". What is the right terminology?

2) What is the name of this defense?

3) How to react to this defense? I found it very hard to destroy that triangle wall that don't allow me to advance.

4) What is the difference when this triangle has the vertex in front of the King and in front of the Queen?

It doesn't have a name because 2. f3 loses right away. In front of the Queen, then it's the Semi-Slav and that's ok.

Avatar of Optimissed
blueemu wrote:

No offense, but arguing over the names of variations isn't chess.

It's stamp collecting.

As a stamp collector I can state categorically that arguing over the names of chess openings isn't stamp collecting.

Avatar of MisterWindUpBird
sasadangelo wrote:
orlock20 ha scritto:

Also, stop taking guarded pawns with back-row pieces.

 

What does it mean?

It means trading one of your pieces- bishop, knight, rook, queen for a pawn is usually not a good idea.