Why is this move SO bad?

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Avatar of Wcndave
 
Laskersnephew wrote:

5...h6 also seriously weakens the h5-e8 diagonal. This is not just a theoretical problem. After 6.Bxf7+ Kxf7 7.Ne5+, Black cannot retreat his king to e8 because White has mate in two because of the weakness on that diagonal. 

So yes, h6 was that bad. And the explanation for why it was that bad is right in front of you in the analysis that you posted in #1. White had devastating tactics available on move 6 and move 7. You could gain a great deal by studying those positions, because those are very thematic tactics that occur frequently.

 

Lots going on here!

Firstly, to @laskersnephew above, I just wanted to understand why that line was SO bad, because I have seen Queen blunders that didn't result in a 8 point swing, and it's not immediately obvious to someone of my level how to make it a game-winning position after move 8.  You've effectively said the answer was in front of me, but in fairness, if that had been adequate to sate my wish to understand the reason why, I wouldn't have posted anything at all....  It is correct that studying positions is useful, and that's why I even study my opponents' errors and have moved from 580 to 1050 in 5 odd weeks, and hence why I asked the question grin.png

@pfren and @RAU4ever thank you for your insights, a few things I've noticed include.

a) It seems really easy for people to get very divisive very quickly here, I imagine I was explaining to a child some fundamental of physics, and Einstein's in the room and says I am an idiot who understands nothing of physics and just having a Bsc in it should totally shut up and not talk to children about physics.....  I guess we have to accept that people will have different opinions based on lots of factors, not the least what level they themselves are at.

b) It seems really easy to get side-tracked I didn't even mention the a6 at the start (although to be fair I did in post #8 in passing), yet a lot of conversation got very focused around that element.

c) It's quite hard to keep a discussion at a level that is appropriate for the poster.  I get that each individual will vary, however I do like that comment by @RAU4ever that we learn to count before we introduce -1^1/2, and a lot of the conversation here is going over my head right now.  I actually don't really consider myself a "beginner" now, but definitely a novice grin.png  There seems to be quite a lot of looking down on anyone < 1400 as some sort of idiot by a certain stripe of person - which doesn't really help.  But explaining only the concepts relevant to me at my level would certainly be helpful.

 

I think my final "answer to myself" would be something like...

The move allows a sacrifice combination by white that at best mates in 4 and at worst drives the king out into the middle of the board, and yes, that is worth an evaluation swing of 8 points.

This is borne out by the next move 6. d4 swinging the eval bar back to +1.  The lack of development is a factor in white having an overall better position regardless, but most of the swing to +8 was due to that possible combo move.

Many thanks to all who've written genuinely helpful, or even just interesting comments, I think the above is the "answer" to the simplish question I wrote in this "beginner" forum grin.png thumbup.png

Now to get back to learning the next steps for me at my level in my time :wave

Thanks again!

Avatar of nklristic
Wcndave wrote:
 
Laskersnephew wrote:

5...h6 also seriously weakens the h5-e8 diagonal. This is not just a theoretical problem. After 6.Bxf7+ Kxf7 7.Ne5+, Black cannot retreat his king to e8 because White has mate in two because of the weakness on that diagonal. 

So yes, h6 was that bad. And the explanation for why it was that bad is right in front of you in the analysis that you posted in #1. White had devastating tactics available on move 6 and move 7. You could gain a great deal by studying those positions, because those are very thematic tactics that occur frequently.

 

Lots going on here!

Firstly, to @laskersnephew above, I just wanted to understand why that line was SO bad, because I have seen Queen blunders that didn't result in a 8 point swing, and it's not immediately obvious to someone of my level how to make it a game-winning position after move 8.  You've effectively said the answer was in front of me, but in fairness, if that had been adequate to sate my wish to understand the reason why, I wouldn't have posted anything at all....  It is correct that studying positions is useful, and that's why I even study my opponents' errors and have moved from 580 to 1050 in 5 odd weeks, and hence why I asked the question

@pfren and @RAU4ever thank you for your insights, a few things I've noticed include.

a) It seems really easy for people to get very divisive very quickly here, I imagine I was explaining to a child some fundamental of physics, and Einstein's in the room and says I am an idiot who understands nothing of physics and just having a Bsc in it should totally shut up and not talk to children about physics.....  I guess we have to accept that people will have different opinions based on lots of factors, not the least what level they themselves are at.

b) It seems really easy to get side-tracked I didn't even mention the a6 at the start (although to be fair I did in post #8 in passing), yet a lot of conversation got very focused around that element.

c) It's quite hard to keep a discussion at a level that is appropriate for the poster.  I get that each individual will vary, however I do like that comment by @RAU4ever that we learn to count before we introduce -1^1/2, and a lot of the conversation here is going over my head right now.  I actually don't really consider myself a "beginner" now, but definitely a novice   There seems to be quite a lot of looking down on anyone < 1400 as some sort of idiot by a certain stripe of person - which doesn't really help.  But explaining only the concepts relevant to me at my level would certainly be helpful.

 

I think my final "answer to myself" would be something like...

The move allows a sacrifice combination by white that at best mates in 4 and at worst drives the king out into the middle of the board, and yes, that is worth an evaluation swing of 8 points.

This is borne out by the next move 6. d4 swinging the eval bar back to +1.  The lack of development is a factor in white having an overall better position regardless, but most of the swing to +8 was due to that possible combo move.

Many thanks to all who've written genuinely helpful, or even just interesting comments, I think the above is the "answer" to the simplish question I wrote in this "beginner" forum

Now to get back to learning the next steps for me at my level in my time :wave

Thanks again!

Nah, nobody should feel bad for being <1 400, I was there last year, nothing wrong with that.

Generally the reason why many of us state that in the beginning (beginning is the colloquial term as in mostly everything less than 1 200 or so) you should really try to develop the pieces as fast as you can, because of a game like this. There are many somewhat lower rated people who feel the need to play these a6 and h6 type of moves.

You do not really need to remember something like: "it fails because of this sacrifice and then there is this precise sequence of moves."

You should remember the principles. What you should learn is to just see the position when the evaluation shifted (it is on move 6) and see that white has 3 pieces out, black has none.

Sometimes you can get away with that, but in general 3 pieces out vs 0 means that the side with 3 pieces out is much better (in some cases like in this case even winning). Of course, here it is even worse because there is a concrete tactical shot, but the concept of quick development is something that will serve you well at almost all times.

By the way, this pattern with queen check on h5 is useful to remember as the variation of that tactic can happen from time to time. For instance it can happen when you move your f pawn too early (which is another thing novice players often misuse), and in that case it is even easier to spot because no sacrifice is even needed.

As for saying that you do not see an immediate win, you are correct. If black doesn't go to e8, there is no immediate checkmate, but visually speaking if black plays correctly to let's say e6 with his king, black has all the pieces at the back rank and his king on e6.

White is a piece down, but that position can't be good for black because king at the center of the board will either be checkmated or it will result in a big loss of material. Black has sacrificed a piece for a pawn, lead in development and a very unsafe black's king. It seems that white has more than enough for the sacrifice.

Of course, white can mess up the position as well, but that is up to white. happy.png

Avatar of RAU4ever

Exactly what Nklristic says: nobody is (or should be!) looking down on lower rated players. "Beginners" is just a term for a class of chess players. It's also born out of the fact that over the board adult players usually start with a rating around 1000. That's why you'll hear the term beginner a lot, while in reality, especially on chess.com with so many other players that are rated lower than 1000, they are not necessarily all that new to the game. 

Avatar of RAU4ever

An afterthought: if you want to feel what can happen when black neglects his development, look for some games of Morphy. Simply googling Morphy chess games will give you a site where you can look at some memorable games by him. Some of the tactics will be quite difficult, but even just looking through them will give you a feel of what is possible in chess when you have the edge in development.

Avatar of Laskersnephew

nklristic: When I said that the answer was right in front of you, I wasn't trying to insult you, or to imply that the answers were obvious. But it would have been well worth your while to put the board and work through those variations on your own until you began to understand what was going on. That's the kind of active learning that will make a stronger player and a better tactician.

Avatar of nklristic
Laskersnephew wrote:

nklristic: When I said that the answer was right in front of you, I wasn't trying to insult you, or to imply that the answers were obvious. But it would have been well worth your while to put the board and work through those variations on your own until you began to understand what was going on. That's the kind of active learning that will make a stronger player and a better tactician.

Certainly, but I am not the OP. tongue.png

Avatar of Laskersnephew

Sorry, I didn't notice that you were quoting the OP.

Avatar of nklristic
Laskersnephew wrote:

Sorry, I didn't notice that you were quoting the OP.

No problem. happy.png

Avatar of littletiger2010

This move is bad because you are sacrificing a tempo when you could have developed. Plus, your opponent can do a deadly attack. Also, why not just develop?

Avatar of llama47
Wcndave wrote:
This is not a move I would have played, but in the analysis it swung from +0.5 to +8.
I can't see why it would be considered so bad.  It doesn't do much other than protect against Ng5 and fried liver, but is it really so bad?  Even looking at the line that comes after it doesn't make me any the wiser...
 
 
 

 

Classically, a tempo is worth 1/3rd a of a pawn. Wasting a move in the opening altering the eval by 0.3 is hardly a surprise happy.png

Avatar of llama47

I'm a bit disappointed no one seems to have mentioned this. The OP is clearly thinking in terms of h6 must have some forcing line that defeats it, or some specific weakenss to it.

Having more active pieces (in chess "pieces" means non-pawns) means you're ahead no matter what happens. There might be 1000 different outcomes from that position, but since black can only make 1 move at a time, black will never catch up, so black will have fewer active pieces in all 1000 possibilities. It's a very simple concept like that.

Now... a beginner might complain "I've never won (or lost) a game because I was ahead (or behind) a few moves in development" -- well sure, that's probably true. As you get better such things will matter more. For now it wont impact your results (win/loss/draw) so much as just give you a slightly more comfortable position.

Avatar of Laskersnephew

llama47 said "Classically, a tempo is worth 1/3rd a of a pawn. Wasting a move in the opening altering the eval by 0.3 is hardly a surprise happy.png"

I think you misread the OP's original post. The evaluation didn't change by 0.3, it changed from +0.5 to +8.0, a change of 7.5!  The position after White's 5.Nf3 is full of tactical danger, because White is so far ahead in development 

Avatar of llama47
Laskersnephew wrote:

llama47 said "Classically, a tempo is worth 1/3rd a of a pawn. Wasting a move in the opening altering the eval by 0.3 is hardly a surprise "

I think you misread the OP's original post. The evaluation didn't change by 0.3, it changed from +0.5 to +8.0, a change of 7.5!  The position after White's 5.Nf3 is full of tactical danger, because White is so far ahead in development 

Oh, you're right.

Avatar of Wcndave

It's ok peeps, wasn't talking about any of the subsequent posters being rude!  You've been helpful.  I don't feel bad about being 1000, in fact I feel good about it.  It does seem an odd number to start at. As an intelligent, analytical person who simply knew the moves, and general principles like develop, centre, fork, pin, I dropped straight to high 500's until I did some work, and I have friends who have levelled out even lower.  In general I am putting variations to work, and analysing positions etc.  I just wanted to know why it was SO bad, normally it takes a real blunder to move the eval bar that much.  Anyway, I think I've answered it quite succinctly above.  Boy can these threads go off track grin.png

Avatar of Laskersnephew

Keep asking questions, keep trying to analyze your games, and you'll improve rapidly

Avatar of Uthum2013

 

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Avatar of noImAparrot

It walks into M27 with 32. g3#