Why was [such and such] specific move bad?

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tylercollier

I'm a beginner. I'm learning to use the analysis tools on chess.com. I'm being told that some of the moves were bad, and that instead I should have done something else, but sometimes I don't understand why the recommended move is better, or even good. I am working my way through the premium lessons, so I'm learning general theory, but in the meantime I'm too inexperienced to know the reasoning for the specific recommended move. My question is, what's the best place to get the answer? I suppose I could ask here but am hoping there's a really easy way, perhaps the analysis tool itself could offer a deeper explanation. Or is there single button I could click to generate a forum question directly linked to that move?

As an example, I played the following game and I played 9. d5 but the analysis is saying I should have played Bf6. In that scenario, I would have taken a knight, but then a pawn would have taken my bishop.

If you respond, please do not focus on this specific move but answer the general question of where to ask these types of questions. I glanced at the forum and didn't really see many of this style question so was surprised, perhaps this forum is not the right place anyway. Thanks for your help!

notmtwain
tylercollier wrote:

I'm a beginner. I'm learning to use the analysis tools on chess.com. I'm being told that some of the moves were bad, and that instead I should have done something else, but sometimes I don't understand why the recommended move is better, or even good. I am working my way through the premium lessons, so I'm learning general theory, but in the meantime I'm too inexperienced to know the reasoning for the specific recommended move. My question is, what's the best place to get the answer? I suppose I could ask here but am hoping there's a really easy way, perhaps the analysis tool itself could offer a deeper explanation. Or is there single button I could click to generate a forum question directly linked to that move?

As an example, I played the following game and I played 9. d5 but the analysis is saying I should have played Bf6. In that scenario, I would have taken a knight, but then a pawn would have taken my bishop.

 

 

If you respond, please do not focus on this specific move but answer the general question of where to ask these types of questions. I glanced at the forum and didn't really see many of this style question so was surprised, perhaps this forum is not the right place anyway. Thanks for your help!

It's usually not too hard to figure out. If you look at the analysis after move 8, it shows you it's evaluation of the top 3 choices, including the one you mentioned Bxf6. The evaluation would be -0.5 indicating a very small advantage for black.

After you played d5, the computer evaluation is much lower -- -3.50 indicating that your move loses a piece because you have to deal with the pawn's attack on your queen instead of taking your opponent's knight, which I assume was your intention.

Comparing these alternatives shows why your move was bad.

If you take some time to work through these things, your ability to see these things before they happen should improve.

/ No, there is no button to ask a question.

TrainerMeow
tylercollier wrote:

...... But in the meantime I'm too inexperienced to know the reasoning for the specific recommended move. My question is, what's the best place to get the answer?

Some of us pay a human coach to explain moves that are beyond their scope. Some discuss with fellow players (often in a pub or classroom setting) until they reach a conclusion. Some consult chess books for answers. And if none of these resources are helpful (or available), you may just leave it behind.

It's totally fine to ignore a few SF suggestions and continue your day. Be assured that, if you keep learning for a few months, you'll be able to count material quickly and see why moves like 9.d5 are bad in a second.

Good luck trying to find complete guidance on public forums, or any part of the internet not protected by a paywall. There is a reason why human chess trainers (me included) are not out of work... yet.

alexwiththeglasses
Hi Tyler:

It’s not you. IMO this is a real problem in getting from beginner to intermediate... I know first-hand!
There is no tool. There is a program called DecodeChess that is trying to do something about offering explanations but I haven’t goofed around with it.
One idea would be using the engine to follow the lines, comparing your moves & best moves for both white & black to see if you can get an idea of what’s going on & why.
The problem is that it’s only specific to that situation. The real question is how to see this stuff in any situation, to generalize a method or way of looking at the chessboard.
There’s a traditional way of doing that. It generally involves looking at checks, captures, threats & forced moves to arrive at “candidate moves”, then calculating the following moves for both white & black likely to result from each candidate move. Nasty business.
If you’d like a better explanation & how to apply the traditional way along with some other ways of looking at the board feel free to message me - no problem.
Deranged

Chess computers do NOT tell you why a move is good or bad.

If you want to know why a move is good or bad, you need to either:

1) Work it out yourself

2) Ask someone else

AtaChess68
I think that if I am not able to find the explanation myself it is probably to difficult for me and in that case I won’t remember it.
tylercollier

Thanks for the advice y'all. I didn't know about the "Show Lines" analysis that @notmtwain and @alexwiththeglasses mentioned, so that is helpful. I am actually overwhelmed with the amount of analysis and tools available (in a good way, can't wait to try it all). So while I understand a computer is not a substitute for a human coach, I am happy that there is more that I need to familiarize myself with. I am definitely enjoying the learning process! Thank you!

NZRichie

9 d5 is bad as it loses a piece. Chess can be a simple game sometimes. 

But obviously you need to see why it loses a piece first.

tylercollier

@NZRichie I lost a pawn but recaptured. Is that considered losing a piece? The computer's suggested move was Bxf6 which would have captured the Black's knight, but Black would have recaptured my bishop. So is the idea to attack first?

Sollieman83
tylercollier wrote:

@NZRichie I lost a pawn but recaptured. Is that considered losing a piece? The computer's suggested move was Bxf6 which would have captured the Black's knight, but Black would have recaptured my bishop. So is the idea to attack first?



m_connors

As a beginner, it can be very frustrating trying to figure out why your move is considered a poor choice and the suggested moves are better. This is understandable, since the computer analysis is evaluating moves at a much higher level than your level of experience.

As has already been suggested, look at the next few lines of moves for the suggested move and try to work out why the move has been suggested from those moves. Some suggestions might be obvious - such as setting up a pin, fork or discovered check. However, as a beginner it may still be difficult to see the "why" even when doing this for much more subtle moves - ie improving position. Remember, all of the moves are at a level far greater than what you are playing at.

Reading books on chess tactics can help, since these books, especially for beginners and intermediate players, can expose you to tactics you had not seen or considered. Then when playing, or analyzing games, they become easier to see.

As to your particular question, I assume by moving b5 you want to attack your opponent's Knight on c6? What would you do if you were Black and this move was made against you? There are two obvious options, take the pawn or move the Knight to safety. There is no "good" way to take the pawn, so you might consider moving the Knight. However, there is a third option, mentioned above (post #2) - bxc4. The pawn takes the White Bishop attacking the Queen. Now White HAS to move its Queen (likely take the pawn) and now Black can move the Knight to safety, likely a5 attacking the Queen's new position. So, a pawn has been traded for a Bishop - not a good move after all. Bxf6 trades a Bishop for a Knight (Black would retake the Bishop with its Bishop - keeping the pawns in front of the King in better position and moving its Bishop out).

Reading books on chess tactics and playing the game will help you understand this type of thinking as you progress. Keep on analyzing your games and try to see why the moves are being suggested. It will take some time, but gradually more and more of the suggestions will become clearer and better yet, you will start seeing and making the moves yourself. Good luck! happy.png

 

tacticspotter

ummm I don't know what to say because I see this...:

Deranged

For me personally, I can usually figure out why a move is bad 99% of the time just by playing it out against an engine.

For example, the position you showed me. Let's simulate a few moves ahead and see what happens:

Literally just go on the analysis board, make your move, look in the top right corner of the screen, and see how the computer responds to your move. That should show you why it's bad.

You might have to go down the rabbit hole a bit and play the position out for several moves before it really makes sense, but eventually, you should reach a position where you understand why you're losing.

Deranged

Also one other thing: you can usually tell the difference between a strategic error vs a tactical error just by looking at the difference in evaluation.

If the evaluation goes from +0.3 to -0.2, that's probably a strategic error. Not a big deal.

If the evaluation goes from +0.3 to -4.5, that's probably a tactical error. Tactics will make or break the game for you.

At your level, you should only focus on tactics. Don't worry about strategic errors.

tylercollier

Apologies folks (especially to to @m_connors and @Deranged). I foolishly didn't mention that I understand why my move wasn't good. If I recall, I made my move in haste just trying to speed along due to the clock. I understand losing my bishop and only recapturing a pawn (with threat on my queen) is bad, and obviously worse than the computer's suggestion of a trade of Black's knight for my bishop. So my question was more about why was the computer's move good. I've been watching the videos and have learned that trading material is ok/good when you are winning in material, but at move 9 with no pieces yet captured by either side, that wasn't the case.

Thanks @Sollieman83, I didn't know you could add analysis/lines. Can you tell me how you did that?

@tacticspotter I used the "Insert chess game or diagram" button and pasted in the PGN and wasn't sure how to get it to show the game at move 9. Do you know? But you can click on the "9. d5" in the widget and it'll show the game at that position.

@Deranged, thanks for the tip about tactics vs strategy and the -/+. I think you're right. It's fun to watch videos about strategy, and the videos on youtube make strategy seem so obvious/easy, but I will continue working on my tactics.

@m_connors would you recommend books over videos or online materials? I really like chess.com material where I can try out the recommendations after watching their videos.

TrainerMeow
tylercollier wrote:

I've been watching the videos and have learned that trading material is ok/good when you are winning in material, but at move 9 with no pieces yet captured by either side, that wasn't the case.

Very true. 9.Bxf6 is, under normal circumstances, a concession that gives Black the powerful bishop pair. But in this particular position, 9.Bxf6 is a good try to save your position.

You probably didn't realize you were already in a difficult position at move 9. The culprit? You brought your queen out too early with 6.Qd3, blocking the bishop's retreat to f1, as well as making 9.d5 impossible.

tylercollier

Just wanted to say thanks again for the tip about turning on the "lines". I'm not sure why it's not on by default (or who knows, maybe I accidentally turned it off at some point) but I'd say it's basically the answer to my question. At least at my level, I can usually see why the computer's suggested move is a good idea within a few moves. I'm learning a lot from it!

HandsomeDesert
You should play Ra1 Kg8 Ra1# instead of Kg2
HandsomeDesert
Sorry I meant to say Ra1 Kh8 Ra7#
HandsomeDesert
SORRY I actually meant to say Ra7 Kh8 Ra8#