Exciting Game

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LeotheLion402

I haven't posted any games in a while, so I thought I'd share a toughy (for me) I just played. There's probably lots of mistakes here, but it was really exciting. Smile Any comments or thoughts are appreciated.

So, any sort of analysis you can provide would be helpful. Thanks! Laughing

-Leo

Shakaali

After 13... Ba6? you are safely on course for the victory but 34. a8=Q? makes things quite difficult. White still has the advantage of course, but these kind of rook endings with 3 against 3 on the kingside and one extra pawn on the queenside tend to be quite tricky and the defending side has very real drawing chances.

Instead 34 Be3 Ra2 wins easily: white will just play b6+Rb8+b7 etc.

mschosting

Hi nice game :)

On move 9 Bxd5 theres no need for that move I guess I would simply sac the pawn and 0-0 rigth away but its ok anyway.

on move 12 black was sligthly better but then your opponent starts to give material away too bad :)

21 Nxd5? are you crazy??? :) Even 3 pawns up its not that difficult to blunder on an opposite colour bishops endgame and get a drawn.

28 the first pawn goes you must be really careful now not to draw.

On move 33 if you move your Bishop anywere you could just push the b pawn to help ibstead of giving a free pawn to your opponent.

Iam not completely sure about the position after move 36 maybe black could make a draw out of it but looks really difficult

On move 55 you are winning on every variation :) but Kg2 there instead of Kg3 would be far more difficult for you.

On the overall it was a nice game and you played very well, just disliked the way you gave chances to your opponent by sacrificing your N and then by giving away a free pawn in the endgame.

JG27Pyth

JG27Pyth
Fiveofswords wrote:

21 Nxd5 was great imo, I also wouldve played that move...you get a very clear, easy winning position....if you know how to do it, I guess lol, maybe study a little more endgame. But yes im completely sure about the position on move 36...that is a dead draw if black knows how to do it. Theres a trick or two that you can try, but if black knows this endgame he wont fall for them.


It's a clear winning position, true, but IMO it's slightly less clear and winning than the position right before Nxd5?! Anyway, what's the rush? Why make that sac now? It's not going anywhere. If you're going to sac for position, and the position isn't particularly time-sensitive I think it makes sense to get piece to good squares and then sac? The bishop isn't ideal and the king looks misplaced to me.   First, Kf1 to prevent the rook from penetrating with Re1+ or Re2...

mschosting
JG27Pyth wrote:
Fiveofswords wrote:

21 Nxd5 was great imo, I also wouldve played that move...you get a very clear, easy winning position....if you know how to do it, I guess lol, maybe study a little more endgame. But yes im completely sure about the position on move 36...that is a dead draw if black knows how to do it. Theres a trick or two that you can try, but if black knows this endgame he wont fall for them.


It's a clear winning position, true, but IMO it's slightly less clear and winning than the position right before Nxd5?! Anyway, what's the rush? Why make that sac now? It's not going anywhere. If you're going to sac for position, and the position isn't particularly time-sensitive I think it makes sense to get piece to good squares and then sac? The bishop isn't ideal and the king looks misplaced to me.   First, Kf1 to prevent the rook from penetrating with Re1+ or Re2...


Kf1 runs into Ba6+ maybe f3 Ke2 instead? theres no way black is ever going to push those central pawns as for the pawn+R endgame I know they tend to be drawish but cant see a defense thgere for black after move 40 Kg4 seems pretty clear to me

kevingong
mschosting wrote:

On move 33 if you move your Bishop anywere you could just push the b pawn to help ibstead of giving a free pawn to your opponent.


I agree.  34. a8=Q is clearly a mistake.  Moving the bishop leads to an easy win.  For example:  34. Be3 Ra2 35. b6 Bc6 36. Rb8 Bd5 37. b7 Bxb7 38. Rxb7.

After 34. Be3, the black rook has to stay on the a-file, meaning you can march the b-pawn all the way down until black is forced to give up the bishop for it.

LeotheLion402

Thanks for everbody's input. Smile Yes, 34. a8=Q was a poor choice and I do know I need to study more endgame. Time is the problem... Wink I'm going to have to defend Nxd5, though. Maybe I'm way off-base, but my reasoning was that it cleared the queenside of enemy pawns for little cost and would hopefully give me better chance at promoting. The fact that I botched the job later on is irrelevant to that fact. Laughing I completely missed the Bxf7+ move! That would have been great, but... More mistakes by a rookie. Smile

Again, thank you everyone - I promise to study endgames more and look for better tactics than unsound sacrifices. Cool

-Leo

Shakaali
JG27Pyth wrote:

 


Even though the opinion of JG27Pyth deserves some respect because of his high rating I cannot believe that the final position of his analysis after 9. Nxe4 could be that bad for black without any furhter explanation. I mean why should it be: material is even, black can castle "by hand" with Rf8/Re8 + Kg8 and he even has some potential long term advantages like the bishop pair and extra central pawn after eventual d5. If anything black should be somewhat better I think.

As for 21. Nxd5 I wouldn't personaly play it but I don't think white should have any problems winning after it either (after all he has 3(!) connected passed pawns) and therefore wouldn't call it a mistake.

mschosting
Shakaali wrote:
JG27Pyth wrote:

 


Even though the opinion of JG27Pyth deserves some respect because of his high rating I cannot believe that the final position of his analysis after 9. Nxe4 could be that bad for black without any furhter explanation. I mean why should it be: material is even, black can castle "by hand" with Rf8/Re8 + Kg8 and he even has some potential long term advantages like the bishop pair and extra central pawn after eventual d5. If anything black should be somewhat better I think.

As for 21. Nxd5 I wouldn't personaly play it but I don't think white should have any problems winning after it either (after all he has 3(!) connected passed pawns) and therefore wouldn't call it a mistake.


Black is quite lost in that position, the fact that black as to castle "by hand" means he will loose too many tempos and is king is committed to kingside, the F pawn is a really important defensive pawn and black as no passed pawns a passed pawn is a pawn that can move forward freely without the risk of capture and there is none in this case, black as doubled c pawns which is a long term disadvantage and in this position white should not look for the endgame he as a really big attack emerging if he is allowed just

0-0 Re2 Re3 Rg3 maybe or another plan to get the rook in action a4 Ra3 Rg3 there are endless attacking possibilities here for white. Black is not completely lost but its quite worst in the position, and another important factor for the endgame are the pawn islands, the fewer the better. white as 2 pawn islands while black as three and a really weak and isolated A pawn.

Deranged

Not very exciting game.

Imo you should have paid more attention to keeping an active king in the endgame.

Shakaali
mschosting wrote:

Black is quite lost in that position, the fact that black as to castle "by hand" means he will loose too many tempos and is king is committed to kingside, the F pawn is a really important defensive pawn and black as no passed pawns a passed pawn is a pawn that can move forward freely without the risk of capture and there is none in this case, black as doubled c pawns which is a long term disadvantage and in this position white should not look for the endgame he as a really big attack emerging if he is allowed just

0-0 Re2 Re3 Rg3 maybe or another plan to get the rook in action a4 Ra3 Rg3 there are endless attacking possibilities here for white. Black is not completely lost but its quite worst in the position, and another important factor for the endgame are the pawn islands, the fewer the better. white as 2 pawn islands while black as three and a really weak and isolated A pawn.


I still don't buy this. First of all, to castle by hand takes just two moves and after continuation like the one in the following diagram

White has no development advantage whatsoever. White's pieces are not in the position to attack effectively and probably never will be if black plays sensibly and keeps the control of the centre and his pieces active. Black next plans to go d5 (or possibly d6). As for the f-pawn being an important defensive pawn I would rather have the extra central pawn here (as I don't think white has a serious attack) and of course black now has the open f-file. It's true that white's pawn formation would be better in the ending but "before the endgame gods have placed the middlegame" and even in the ending bishop pair often compensates or even outweights worse pawn formation.

mschosting

I would take white in the position :)

The reality in the position is black as a plus the Bishop pair.

But white as only two against three pawn islands and a much safer game during the middlegame with attacking chances for both sides but once again white is better protected :)

JG27Pyth
Shakaali wrote:
mschosting wrote:

Black is quite lost in that position, the fact that black as to castle "by hand" means he will loose too many tempos and is king is committed to kingside, the F pawn is a really important defensive pawn and black as no passed pawns a passed pawn is a pawn that can move forward freely without the risk of capture and there is none in this case, black as doubled c pawns which is a long term disadvantage and in this position white should not look for the endgame he as a really big attack emerging if he is allowed just

0-0 Re2 Re3 Rg3 maybe or another plan to get the rook in action a4 Ra3 Rg3 there are endless attacking possibilities here for white. Black is not completely lost but its quite worst in the position, and another important factor for the endgame are the pawn islands, the fewer the better. white as 2 pawn islands while black as three and a really weak and isolated A pawn.


I still don't buy this. First of all, to castle by hand takes just two moves and after continuation like the one in the following diagram

White has no development advantage whatsoever. White's pieces are not in the position to attack effectively and probably never will be if black plays sensibly and keeps the control of the centre and his pieces active. Black next plans to go d5 (or possibly d6). As for the f-pawn being an important defensive pawn I would rather have the extra central pawn here (as I don't think white has a serious attack) and of course black now has the open f-file. It's true that white's pawn formation would be better in the ending but "before the endgame gods have placed the middlegame" and even in the ending bishop pair often compensates or even outweights worse pawn formation.


Shaakali I think you make a lot of good points... I saw it pretty much as mschosting did, but looking at it again -- Black's not in as much trouble as I'd thought...certainly  calling black lost overstates whites advantage but I think you're overstating some of black's plusses too. I don't think the d pawn is terribly relevant. I do think the Bishop pair can make a lot of trouble in this kind of position though.   In short, there's a lot of game left. Black has dynamic plusses... open position and bishop pair, white has --for the moment at least -- the superior pawn structure for an endgame and a small initiative as Black deals with placing his pieces. I agree that White's (non)attack develops too slow to take advantage of Black's exposed king in a forcing way. I wonder what a GM sees there.  My two cents.

mschosting
Fiveofswords wrote:

about this controversial position, white's pieces are not well coordinated, especially not to manouver around a solid d pawn here. The black bishops and rooks are extremely flexible and dangerous here. I think black has a slight advantage. and my eval is pretty much always in agreement with GM eval unless im missing some tactic :P


Thats humble! :) black is ok because of the bishop pair in the open game but still as the pawn structure problems to solve and some issues with K safety Ill put this on rybka when I get home (working now) but my bet is += 0.17 :)

JG27Pyth
Fiveofswords wrote:

about this controversial position, white's pieces are not well coordinated, especially not to manouver around a solid d pawn here. The black bishops and rooks are extremely flexible and dangerous here. I think black has a slight advantage. and my eval is pretty much always in agreement with GM eval unless im missing some tactic :P


My engine likes Black and gives a significant plus that floats between -0.6 and -1.0 for quite a little while including some lines where White wins the a-pawn... I'm not giving up on slightly preferring White though  -- 3200 elo rated engines be damned! Surprised I'm going to have a little engine shoot out tourney from the position and see what the results are.

mschosting's  suggestion, on white's move 9 -- just 0-0 right away may just be best.

LeotheLion402
Fiveofswords wrote:

about this controversial position, white's pieces are not well coordinated, especially not to manouver around a solid d pawn here. The black bishops and rooks are extremely flexible and dangerous here. I think black has a slight advantage. and my eval is pretty much always in agreement with GM eval unless im missing some tactic :P


I do hope everyone realizes that this isn't an amazing game. I'm a teenager who plays chess for fun. While I appreciate all the comments and criticism and I do feel like I'm learning here, I feel it's a bit much when you're dissecting a position I thought about for a minute or less in a Live Chess game. Wink Feel free to enjoy yourselves and discuss the position to your heart's content, though - I'm very interested to see what players a great deal better than I have to say about my game.

Deranged, I humbly apologize for the misleading forum title - perhaps I should have mentioned that it was simply MY opinion that it was an exciting game (by my own standards). I'm sorry you didn't view it the same way. Undecided

-Leo

JG27Pyth
LeotheLion402 wrote:
Fiveofswords wrote:

about this controversial position, white's pieces are not well coordinated, especially not to manouver around a solid d pawn here. The black bishops and rooks are extremely flexible and dangerous here. I think black has a slight advantage. and my eval is pretty much always in agreement with GM eval unless im missing some tactic :P


I do hope everyone realizes that this isn't an amazing game. I'm a teenager who plays chess for fun. While I appreciate all the comments and criticism and I do feel like I'm learning here, I feel it's a bit much when you're dissecting a position I thought about for a minute or less in a Live Chess game. Feel free to enjoy yourselves and discuss the position to your heart's content, though - I'm very interested to see what players a great deal better than I have to say about my game.

Deranged, I humbly apologize for the misleading forum title - perhaps I should have mentioned that it was simply MY opinion that it was an exciting game (by my own standards). I'm sorry you didn't view it the same way.

-Leo


Hey Leo... don't fret about the analysis/debate -- it has nothing to do with either a lack of quality in your game, or it's exceptional quality. It's no more or less than a position that sparked interest principally on the back of my error: My overenthusiasm for my "improvement" to your answer to Nxe4- 

The sixth world champion Mikhail Botvinnik said something to the effect that skill in chess is principally the ability to evaluate a chess position ... which is exactly the skill we're excercising, and hopefully improving, here.

To make a good move one must be able to recognize the position one is moving to is actually better -- and of course it can't be good when you think the position is better, but it's actually worse for you.

I would have played Bxf7+ confident that I was greatly improving my position... if you'd seen it I think you might have too. Mschosting would have played it I think -- although the move his original instinct supplied was probably superior.

Shaakali has pointed out that after my improvement Black's defects are largely illusory -- (the exposed king, deprived of castling rights, appears an alarming situation but it simply isn't much of problem in reality) while his plusses, principally the bishop pair in an open position, are quite real.

I'm 9/10ths convinced, but am continuing the debate, mostly because a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of a small mind, and i'm a small minded hobgoblin.  Yell  (Also, i haven't been able to run my engine test yet.Wink)

And yes it was an exciting game. Don't be dismayed that people find improvements... people find improvements to World Champion's games.

JG27Pyth

Well, after analyzing with the engine a bit I'm satisfied... my suggestion -- Bxf7+ is not better than the text and actually substantially worse. The position after Bxf7 is basically equal -- White had ways to keep his advantage Bxf7+ gives it away.... in the resulting position Black may hold some theoretical advantage but in practical terms there's a lot of game left. 

In my (not very deep) research I came across this elegant approach to the position after7...Nxe4 that I wanted to share:

 

Shakaali

JG27Pyth, mschosting: Thx for the interesting discussion! I still believe that black might have small edge while you seem to like white's position but basically I think we  all can agree that it's small advantage at most. 9. Qd4! is a nice move and seems to be a clear improvement. White has some advantage in your line altough as Tonydal I also fail to see why white should be "clearly" better. 

As a further note to the opening phase of the game 7. e5 should also be considered as black is then forced to sac a pawn with 7... Nd5. Black should get some compensation if white accepts because his unoposed Bc8 can then become quite aggressive on a8-h1 or a6-f1 diagonal. Without any further analysis I cannot say how serious this compensation is and I think I'm not going to develop this idea further right now.