Actually JG, I'm still not convinced that White is "clearly" better in that new position...
That probably sounded overenthusiastic too, what I should have said was clearly White holds an edge (due to the better pawns). "Clearly better" -- typically means something a good bit stronger I think -- so i agree with you.
Actually JG, I'm still not convinced that White is "clearly" better in that new position...
That probably sounded overenthusiastic too, what I should have said was clearly White holds an edge (due to the better pawns). "Clearly better" -- typically means something a good bit stronger I think -- so i agree with you.
white as to be clearly better :) show me a game between two players with similar position where white did not win :)
Actually JG, I'm still not convinced that White is "clearly" better in that new position...
That probably sounded overenthusiastic too, what I should have said was clearly White holds an edge (due to the better pawns). "Clearly better" -- typically means something a good bit stronger I think -- so i agree with you.
white as to be clearly better :) show me a game between two players with similar position where white did not win :)
I found 4 games with pawns on the same squares and equal material (+1=3-0 for White) here's one of the draws...
white was 2400 vs 2500 and still was so much better :) Theres no way black can equalize the position that structure is such a mess
white was 2400 vs 2500 and still was so much better :) Theres no way black can equalize the position that structure is such a mess
They're within 60 points of each other, very much in the same league. You asked for an example. I gave you one... I have a few more human vs. human but I doubt you'll be convinced. Maybe some engine matches from that exact position -- if Black can draw against an exact copy of itself playing White -- that should meet your rigorous standards I think...
*edit*
Well, in my tiny analysis... (20 games at 13 fixed ply) White scores 75% with no losses (which if it holds up really does rate a "clearly better," doesn't it?) Anyone with Rybka 3 want to do a Monte Carlo analysis of the position?
White is better developed as a better pawn structure and the initiative at least I can't really see how black wants to play in this position.
But nowadays chess is crazy so maybe Carlsen could draw against me if he had black in the game I guess he would eventually manage to fin a perpetual check or something. And just for the record! Topalov would have no chance at all against me here... (with the black pieces I would offer him a draw if I had black)
White is better developed as a better pawn structure and the initiative at least I can't really see how black wants to play in this position.
But nowadays chess is crazy so maybe Carlsen could draw against me if he had black in the game I guess he would eventually manage to fin a perpetual check or something. And just for the record! Topalov would have no chance at all against me here... (with the black pieces I would offer him a draw if I had black)
Try the position against Rybka, or another strong engine... all it takes is one or two inaccuracies, miss one tactic, and *boink* Black puts a dent in your pawn structure, and just like that it's even.
Do we even disagree? I wasn't saying anyone would pick black here, given the choice. (Was Tonydal or anyone saying that? If so I misunderstood...) I think the whole question was how much better is white? --not if white is better.
ok ok you win I got this into rybka :) The move 21 Qe3 +- 0.87 but theres no clear path to victory. After trading Q and R I get +- 0.53 ok white is not that better just 0.8 better :) Still I would not loose to Topalov and now Iam not that sure if I would give him the draw if I had the black pieces!
C'mon, the pawn structure is not the only aspect of that situation. Also exceedingly relevant is Black's easier development (plus you have the usual paradox that Black's weak pawns are not as weak...precisely because they are devalued in the first place [go figure]).
What position is "that situation"?
If we're talking about the position after the end of my post #22 (which is the position we've been discussing most recently) the position is nearly symmetrical except for the pawns, and if anyone has a development lead there, it's White... I don't see how we could be talking about anything other than the pawns.
I think you must mean the position at the end of skakaali's post #14 (even there, in dumb mechanical terms of development White is two moves away from connecting his rooks, Black is three.) Where Black does seem to have a lot smoother time coordinating his pieces and has some 1/2 open files to work with would, but we haven't been talking about that position for bit.
As for Black's weak pawns not being weak... I think what you're saying is -- you wouldn't let them cripple your game by taking pains to defend them and let this freedom allow you to play like a banshee in the middle game... ok, but this still concedes the endgame to White, a pretty big concession I think.
i think the position in your post 22, white is better. I would even go so far as to say clear better.
even rybka agrees on that one...
I was suprised because its not as good as I supposed :) it only give +0.8 and after black moves goes to +0.7... Its not a fast winning position but white as a clear edge in the position
i think the position in your post 22, white is better. I would even go so far as to say clear better.
even rybka agrees on that one...
well i didnt know that but im hardly suprised of course.
Because of course your evaluation almost always agrees with GM evaluation, right? 
Just kidding, I couldn't resist. 
By the way, JG27Pyth, thanks for your comment back at post 21. 
I appreciated that.
-Leo
i think the position in your post 22, white is better. I would even go so far as to say clear better.
even rybka agrees on that one...
well i didnt know that but im hardly suprised of course.
Because of course your evaluation almost always agrees with GM evaluation, right? Just kidding, I couldn't resist.
By the way, JG27Pyth, thanks for your comment back at post 21. I appreciated that.
-Leo
lol
Starboy-
Thanks so much for posting that. A really relevant comment to the discussion. 
Seriously, don't post random stuff here, please. The people in this thread are discussing Chess, not Runescape or other computer games.
-Leo
I did like Qd4 move better than Bxf7 still like the white better in any of the moves