i dont think he should have resigned
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I don't always see everything, so I could be wrong, but I don't see black's position as being hopeless.
Maybe he could figure out the various possibilities several moves in advance and it was all hopeless. I tend not to work everything out that way, but to play for position and pretty much be very limited about the exact scenarios possible, so that could lead to a flaw in my thinking. It looks to me as though white definetly has a superior commanding position, particularly control of the center, but for whatever it's worth, I agree with you that black did not have an absolutely lost position.
Yes, he is destroyed. He's down a piece and 3 pawns. His Q is threatened. You intend to play Nf6+ next turn and win his N.
Here are two not-unreasonable continuations.
14. ... Qa5+ 15. c3 Be7 (or Bg7) 16. Nf6+ Bxf6 17. Bxf6 Rg8 18. Qxe5+ Kf8 19. Qe7#
14. ... Be7 15. Nd6+ Kf8 16. Bh6+ Kg8 17. Nxc8 Qxc8 (Deflecting the queen. Bxd7? Rc7 regaining the piece) 18. Bxd7 (removing e5's defender) Qxd7 19. Qxe5 f6 (the only move) 20. Qe6+ (get the Q's off the board at the price of a pawn) Qxd6 21. dxe6 and white is up a rook and 3 or 4 pawns with no particular compensation for Black.
this game is not 100% lost for black but he is about to recieve a very nasty beating if white plays without mistakes. right now black must save his queen and might end up dealing with a exchange between whites white square bishop and blacks knight
I agree with rdrain16, while blacks position is not desirable, it is not lost. Since there were blunders leading to this position one most believe that more blunders are going to happen. Black needs to defend his position as much as possible and hope that white slips.
what do you think about the play by white (me) up to this point?
Absolutely - your opponent was right. Black's position is way beyond saving.
It will collapse within a few moves. also, white has a decisive material advantage (a whole piece). That's enough to resign without any other special thing in the position. In the given position white has both an extra piece AND a decisive attack.
In addition ,the tactics are pretty straightforward, and black's position collapses within the next few moves anyway. Still. Even with no attack at all, a piece is a piece (now that I look at it - a piece AND three pawns AND a decisive attack).
I didn't care for 7. Ne5 as 7. ... a6 defangs it. Reversing the move order helps a bit: 7. Bb5+ Nd7 8. Ne5 though the f6 N will save his brother. I'd probably have overprotected the d pawn with Bc4 will Instead. Black regains the pawn if he chooses to.
7. ... Be4?? isn't going to help the situation on c6 and is (as we'll see) more precariously placed than on g6. The best he'll see from this is Rg1.
8. Bb5+! A very fine zwishenzug which ultimately strips the e4 B's defender.
8. ... Nc6?? Nd7 holds. The the B on e4 is lost in any event.
12. Qe2 is a sensible move. 12. Qf3 is stronger in that it supports your tactics in the c6 area and hits f7. An immediate 12. Nxc5 wins the exchange though black gets some counterplay if he dares trade queens for a pawn.
13. ... g5?? Worst move on the board. I'd have expected Be7 to relieve immediate pressure on the K from the Q, help nullify the N, and prepare for casting.
Black made a lot of mistakes and you were generally on the ball to exploit them. A very good and well-deserved win on your part.
As for white's play:
2...d5 should be a very dynamic opening. White should probably take exd5, after which Nf6 leads to a very interesting gambit line. I play this sometimes as black. It's a very unusual gambit. but 3.Nc3 is an interesting way to deviate. That is, if you don't mind being pushed around by pawns. Black should have replied 3...d4
3...Bg4? - Should have cost black a pawn
4.h3, after this, black could capture on f3 and then on e4. White would still be better, but winning a center pawn for nothing would have been even more impressive.
4...Bh4 - well, blakc insists on losing the pawn, so white obliges.
7...Be4 - this just loses. If white plays correcly.
8. Bb5+ Nicely done! The most accurate in my opinion. Although Nxe4 should reach a winning position too. This move gains both the material AND the attack.
Had I found myself in that position in a tournament, I'd have resigned immediately there (After Bb5). It's already beyond lost.
Nicely played by white
The position is a crushing defeat. A loss doesn't even cover it. I can't understand the comments that claim otherwise.
Apr 13, 2008
0
#11
Bxc6+! was pretty good, forking his rook, but you failed to follow up on it! You could've taken his rook but instead got his bishop!
Chinunt wrote: Bxc6+! was pretty good, forking his rook, but you failed to follow up on it! You could've taken his rook but instead got his bishop!
You should recheck that move and wonder what Black's reply would have been. A free bishop is better than a rook trade usually.
"I can't understand the comments that claim otherwise."
I suppose it depends on the level of the player, and the "show me" attitude of the players irrespective of their skills. "D" players and below drop pieces all the time so they'd be remiss if they didn't play until mate. As Grolich pointed out, better players, perhaps "B" and better, know a loss when they see it (an uncompensated piece by move 12 being a fine example) and would resign soon. "C" players might resign if down a piece, or they might not. They are transitional. A Rook would probably convince them to, however. This 10,000 foot description assumes both players are in that category. As a B player, if I dropped a piece against a "C" player, I'd play it out - "C" must prove to me that he can defeat me. Besides, I'll loose a bucket of rating points so I have every incentive to play, and play hard - as does "C". Against a peer or better, well, blah, who likes being stuffed, lolz.
"Bxc6+! was pretty good, forking his rook, but you failed to follow up on it! You could've taken his rook but instead got his bishop!"
What silentfilmstar13 said (winning a bishop is better than an exchange.) Plus, sometimes there are big benefits to keeping the defender under extreme pressure so you get a bigger payoff later. Which is what happened in this game.
Apr 13, 2008
0
#15
stormcrown wrote:
"Bxc6+! was pretty good, forking his rook, but you failed to follow up on it! You could've taken his rook but instead got his bishop!"
What silentfilmstar13 said (winning a bishop is better than an exchange.) Plus, sometimes there are big benefits to keeping the defender under extreme pressure so you get a bigger payoff later. Which is what happened in this game.
Yes, but after white takes the rook and black takes the knight, white can still take the bishop, and instead of winning 3 points he wins 5! Ok, I just realized that black would win take the pawn, but it's still a better deal.
Chinunt wrote: stormcrown wrote:
"Bxc6+! was pretty good, forking his rook, but you failed to follow up on it! You could've taken his rook but instead got his bishop!"
What silentfilmstar13 said (winning a bishop is better than an exchange.) Plus, sometimes there are big benefits to keeping the defender under extreme pressure so you get a bigger payoff later. Which is what happened in this game.
Yes, but after white takes the rook and black takes the knight, white can still take the bishop, and instead of winning 3 points he wins 5! Ok, I just realized that black would win take the pawn, but it's still a better deal.
It's not a question of counting points. White played the strongest possible continuation there.
The attack is immediately decisive. Black's position collapses within the next few moves, tactically.
That said, your way reaches a winning position too. So compare one win with the other :) I always take the one with the knockout blow, if there is one.
Take your pick, really
Apr 13, 2008
0
#17
for white:
11. Bxa8 Qxa8
12. Nxe4 Qxd5
seems better. You get one more point out of the exchange and the black queen is right in the middle of the board (but threatening your knight).
Apr 13, 2008
0
#18
benws wrote: Chinunt wrote: Bxc6+! was pretty good, forking his rook, but you failed to follow up on it! You could've taken his rook but instead got his bishop!
you are missing the fact that after 11 Bxa8, Black wins white's own rook with 11...Bxh1.
I stand corrected.
Apr 13, 2008
0
#19
i guess i stand corrected too. I totally missed that. Oh well, I guess it happens when you flip through a game like that :)
grensley wrote:
for white:
11. Bxa8 Qxa8
12. Nxe4 Qxd5
seems better. You get one more point out of the exchange and the black queen is right in the middle of the board (but threatening your knight).
if 11. Bxa8, why would black play 11. ... Qxa8 and not 11. ... Bxh1
my whole object from 8. Bb5+ till 11. Nxe4 was to get that bishop