Muzio's gambit - a failure

Sort:
Etienne

 This is a game where I tried the funky muzio gambit, my second game or so playing the king's gambit basically what I'd like is to know how I should have conducted the attack, and if my analysis might hit something... would 8.Qh5 have been the right continuation? Thoughts?

shadowc
wow. no comments... Well, a comment: Your analysis is satisfactory enough for me, I think.
anaxagoras
While your reasoning about 9. Bxf4 is correct, it is still the best move.  You're hoping for a mistake when you play this line.
farrellr
If you gotta play this gambit, you can't back down after 7. ... Qf6 with a passive move like 8. c3. Maybe 8. e5 dxe5 9. dxe5 would keep the position double-edged. Qh5 and Nc3 both lose in light of Qxd4+ and Qxc4 follows.
anaxagoras

Since the big pawn center is one of the only things white has going for him here, 8. c3 is logical because it keeps the center intact.  You're still losing, but not as badly as after some other moves, including 8. e5 because it opens the a7-g1 diagonal.

Just because a move doesn't attack something, that doesn't make it "passive" unless it really does little for the position.  Here this isn't the case. 

farrellr
Goodness, the a7-g1 diagonal is the least of his worries. He is playing for a rapid kingside attack, which is the only thing that will justify the piece sacrifice. A large pawn center, claiming space, is not going to further that plan. 8. c3 allows black to complete his development and that is the end of things. 8. e5 forces the queen to move, gaining a tempo, and claims the f6 square impeding black's development.

I love an imposing mass of pawns as well as the next man, but when you have invested a large amount of material in order to secure a lead in development, you cannot lose that lead or you're through. 
anaxagoras

farrellr, check it out with a chess engine and see what result you get.

smoran90

The line can be good for over the board play, but here on the internet, players have more time to analyse and find the correct refutation. For internet play, I'd recommend 5.h4. Play could continue 5...g4 6.Ng5 Nh6 7.d4 f6 8.Bxf4 fxg5 9.Bxg5.

This looks a bit more promising than the position in your game.

farrellr
anaxagoras, try setting it up on the board and looking at it. Chess engines are not constructed to answer the question of which totally lost line presents the opponent with greater practical difficulties. That said, I checked the computer before I posted. Both my engines agree 8.e5 and 8.c3 are the two critical moves. Fritz likes 8.c3; Crafty gives the edge to e5. But in practical terms, 8. c3 is a patzer's play. The difference is between a double-edged position where a single slip by black will lose, and a static position where white is a piece down for a pawn with no other compensation. 
anaxagoras

So you say that even if c3 were objectively the best move, White should play something else?

 

8. c3 is a patzer's play

This kind of labeling doesn't help analyze the position, nor is it an argument.  Moreover, it's a rare case that the second best move is also a patzer's play.

 

The difference is between a double-edged position where a single slip by black will lose, and a static position where white is a piece down for a pawn with no other compensation.

This has to be a gross exaggeration.  White is already a piece down with little compensation just by playing the Muzio in the first place.  I also don't think the position can be called static after c3 because the White center is mobile.  Let's face it, the real bad move by White was Nd2.

I should also add that with c3, White can win back the f4 pawn, and only be 1 pawn down in terms of point value.

batgirl

Most of the comments here have been pretty astute, I think. The Muzio, while not really refuted, has lost much of it's punch in this age of computers where defensive lines seem to appear magically out of nowhere. But it's quite a playable and exciting opening, and one I'd never hesitate to play. For one thing, it's instructive ... white gives up a full piece (two pieces in the Double Muzio) for tempo, development and an attack. Once you have invested that material, you crossed the Rubicon. You can not back down for a single move.  You almost came through in this game, but you hesitated. I suggest you arrange to play several Muzio's against this same player who seems pretty good. You may never play another one after, but you will learn so much in the process.

Here is one of the greatest Muzio's of all time in which Geza Maroczy defeats a Muzio expert as his own game. Note how Maroczy hold's his ground.

 

Etienne
Great, thanks for the comments. What do you suggest instead of 9.Nd2? Bxf4? I think it's quite hard to analyse a muzio gambit perhaps because the variations are quite unpredictable, but maybe the best analysis is not to play it online, as the other player has access to book reference. But it could make a damn nice blitz opening!
batgirl

The Muzio is rare nowadays, but here is a 1990 game where Shirov wins brilliantly.  Of course, one must be tempermentally suited to play such an opening; it's not for everyone.

 

Etienne
Wow that's a good win. And good idea to drive the queen to eat the pawns in the middle, opening lines for the rooks to attack the king directly, and all that while making the black lose tempo playing with his queen.
batgirl

When one thinks of the King's Gambit, especially the Muzio variation, possibly the last name that would come to mind would be Anatoly Karpov.

Well, readjust your preconceptions - here is Karpov, not playing a blitz game, but just the opposite, a correspondence game employing the Muzio.

 

justice_avocado
dude, you're crazy. you're freaking insane. no really. you're nuts. you just don't even know. effing muddled in the head.

that's awesome.

(i think i learned the muzio sometime around the grob, and man...i guess i just don't have the balls to just pull that kind of stuff out around civilized company. props to you (and batgirl, thanks for those games from other psychotic chessplayers. really fascinating stuff (ooops, too many parentheses (oops, too many 'o's (is that how you say "'o's"?)))))
Chessnicz
It's kind of weird but it's a gambit- you sacrifice something for good development! I can't memorize it!
KedDuff

interesting i think i will try this opening. aswell as the double sacrifice knight and bishop very sharp tactical games you gotta be super agressive tho..

Daniel3

The Muzio Gambit is quite wild and not seen very often nowadays, but can be fun to try sometimes. Most analysis suggests that the position after Qxf3 is a draw with best play, but further experience in the gambit is needed.

The move Qf6 for Black can really slow down the attack, but if White plays energetically and with nothing holding him back, he can pull off some nice combinations.

KedDuff

move 8. instead of c3 best was Bxf4

the muzio and double muzio is best played by relentless attackers with good tactical precision. i throw gambits alot as black too.

englund vs d4 scandinavian vs e4