Win or draw???

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Avatar of AutisticCath
jetoba wrote:
AutisticCath wrote:
tygxc wrote:

@5

The Laws of Chess are clear:

"6.9 Except where one of Articles 5.1.1, 5.1.2, 5.2.1, 5.2.2, 5.2.3 applies, if a player does not complete the prescribed number of moves in the allotted time, the game is lost by that player. However, the game is drawn if the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate the player’s king by any possible series of legal moves."

https://handbook.fide.com/chapter/E012018 

However, the Laws of Chess are not correctly implemented on chess sites.
Some positions are won per Laws of Chess, but drawn on the site.
Some positions are drawn per Laws of Chess, but lost on the site.

I can't find an exact source, but I believe that this is because chess.com implements USCF rules on the site. The USCF requires the player have sufficient checkmating material. Thus, while under FIDE rules a K+N against a K+R would be won if the player with K+R ran out of time, this would be drawn under USCF rules as it requires the player at least have an additional pawn or bishop besides the knight.

 

 

Chess.com implements something vaguely similar to USCF.  The difference between USCF and FIDE is only significant when the player that still has time has K+B or K+N or K+2N (in USCF those are only wins if the win is forced) while in all other positions FIDE and USCF agree.  Chess.com does not look at the position.  It just ignores all of the opponent's pieces except the king and looks to see if the unflagged player has a pawn and/or rook and/or queen and/or 2B and/or B+N and/or 3N.

If the position is blocked (think K+8P vs K+8P with the pawns locked up in a zigzag fashion and the kings stuck behind their own pawns) then USCF and FIDE would rule a flag as a draw (no legal moves leading to any checkmate) while chess.com would rule flagging as a loss (it only looks at K+8P vs K once the flagging player's pawns are discounted).

That's incorrect. USCF, FIDE, and chess.com all rule a win IFF the player has at least a pawn remaining, even if the player with time has a forced mate. Unless all the other moves are forced otherwise, then it's a draw.

Avatar of jetoba

USCF and FIDE will rule a draw in the following position:  White pawns on a4, d4, g4 and king on e1 vs Black pawns on a5, d5, g5 and king on e8.  Even though both players still have pawns there is no legal series of moves that can lead to checkmate.  A knowledgeable TD/arbiter is needed to make the correct ruling, but if one player flags it is a draw.  Chess.com does not look at the "no legal moves leading to checkmate" scenarios and would award a loss to the flagging player because the opponent has what would be mating material against a lone king.

Also, with White having a king on c2 and knight on d3 versus Black having a king on a2 and pawn on a3, if Black flags after White plays Nb4+ then USCF and FIDE will deem it a loss for the flagging player (forced is ... Ka8, Kc1 a7, Nc2#) while chess.com will see the king and knight as not being mating material.  If the Black pawn is replaced with a rook then FIDE will award a loss for a flagging player with Black (... Ka8, Kc1 Ra7, Nd3 Ra6, Nc4 Ra7, Nb3# is remotely possible) while USCF and chess.com would call it a draw.

Avatar of AutisticCath
jetoba wrote:

Also, with White having a king on c2 and knight on d3 versus Black having a king on a2 and pawn on a3, if Black flags after White plays Nb4+ then USCF and FIDE will deem it a loss for the flagging player (forced is ... Ka8, Kc1 a7, Nc2#) while chess.com will see the king and knight as not being mating material.  If the Black pawn is replaced with a rook then FIDE will award a loss for a flagging player with Black (... Ka8, Kc1 Ra7, Nd3 Ra6, Nc4 Ra7, Nb3# is remotely possible) while USCF and chess.com would call it a draw.

I knew that FIDE will, not sure about USCF. I wish I had a source to site. I also was aware of the impossible losing chances claim as well.

Avatar of AutisticCath
Also, didn't understand you when you said "opposing pawns" at first.

 

Avatar of Knights_of_Doom

If your time had run out, it would have been a draw, because your opponent doesn't have mating material.  However, since your opponent's time ran out, and you do have mating material, you win.

Avatar of JackBirchwood
You won. The clock is part of Chess.
Avatar of jetoba
AutisticCath wrote:
jetoba wrote:

Also, with White having a king on c2 and knight on d3 versus Black having a king on a2 and pawn on a3, if Black flags after White plays Nb4+ then USCF and FIDE will deem it a loss for the flagging player (forced is ... Ka8, Kc1 a7, Nc2#) while chess.com will see the king and knight as not being mating material.  If the Black pawn is replaced with a rook then FIDE will award a loss for a flagging player with Black (... Ka8, Kc1 Ra7, Nd3 Ra6, Nc4 Ra7, Nb3# is remotely possible) while USCF and chess.com would call it a draw.

I knew that FIDE will, not sure about USCF. I wish I had a source to site. I also was aware of the impossible losing chances claim as well.

 

USCR rules 14D and 14E are he applicable ones (page 38 in the link below) and only the K+2N (no opposing pawns), K+B, and K+N positions are different from FIDE.  https://new.uschess.org/sites/default/files/media/documents/us-chess-rule-book-online-only-edition-chapters-1-2-9-10-11-8-23-21.pdf

 

In the diagram in post 24 any flag would still be a draw in FIDE or USCF (impossibility of checkmate trumps the clock and the arbiter can identify it even before anybody flags) but chess.com would give a loss to the flagging player (analysis of the position is not done).

Avatar of DonThe2nd
KnightCharles wrote:

It is only a Draw if he plays it right. But regardless, because you technically have mating material aboard, the game is dependent upon the time always unless their is insufficient mating material. Yes he could technically stop you if he played correctly, but his time ran out, hence he/she loses the game. So he is wrong, and tell him to call 1-800-chess.com

It is a pretty easy draw since it is a rook pawn. All White has to do is run to the corner and he cannot be dislodged. If it was not a corner pawn than correct play is more difficult, White has to stay in front of the black king and maintain opposition. You can goof that up unless you really know what you are doing. So the board position is drawn, but White still loses because there was still a pawn on the board when time ran out.

Avatar of KnightCharles

Black wins because he has sufficient mating material.