1.e4 is drawish?

Sort:
toiyabe
Musikamole wrote:

Great posts, thanks! Thinking of the Petrov and Berlin, I've heard that the King's Gambit fell out of popularity at the top level because Black no longer has trouble equalizing.

 

I think its mainly because black has so many choices to play against the KG, and they are ALL good.  Of course top-level GMs are extremely prepared, so for us non-titled players the Kings Gambit is a fun practical weapon.  And it still CAN be played it that top level...there have been lots of white victories at the highest levels of chess over the past 50 years.  Spassky beat Fischer with it, Short beat Kasparov with it, Judit Polgar even beat Topalov just 6 years ago!  These are world champions who have lost to the King's Gambit.  Play what interests you bud happy.png

toiyabe
richie_and_oprah wrote:
Fixing_A_Hole wrote:
0110001101101000 wrote:

You misunderstand the question @fixing_the_hole. 1.e4 IS drawish when white wants to play for a draw. The Petroff and Berlin are openings when black wants a draw so are unrelated.

At least, this is the commentary I've heard: that black can be frustrated when white goes 1.e4 and tries to suck all the play out.

 

Thats correct that there are lots of potential forced draws that white can play into after 1.e4, but white can ALWAYS play that way regardless of what first move he chooses.  If white wants to play like a coward, many times there is little that black can do besides trying to bait white into a mistake.  And I think you might be the one misunderstanding the OP's question...as he is trying to figure out whether its better to play 1.d4 if you're going for a win, and if you're strictly playing to WIN as white, you play 1.e4.  

Your last sentence is just not true about modern chess.

1. d4 allows better chances to create complications and to create positions in which both sides maintain greater chances of pawn tension and flexible pawn structures.

1. d4 allows better chances to play for favorable endings and less forcing variations are to be encountered than what Black can choose after e4.

1. e4 and the e pawn is hanging and Black can always strategically target the e4 square.

1. d4 makes no such consession and the fight is postponed until later in the game.

1. c4 Kicks the fight until even later than does 1.d4 but does not offer as much flexibility for White due to the Black response of 1. ... e5.


1. e4 remains the preferred move of dogmatists, no doubt.


 

 

I know you're a better chess player than me, but I'd be curious how white can better play for a win against the QGD/Slav/QID/Ragozin than any of the 1.e4 lines.  I understand the idea of tension, and it can be easier to prevent exchanges of pieces within 1.d4 lines, but the initiative after playing 1.d4 seems easier blunted.  

u0110001101101000
Musikamole wrote:

Great posts, thanks! Thinking of the Petrov and Berlin, I've heard that the King's Gambit fell out of popularity at the top level because Black no longer has trouble equalizing.

2...exf with 3...Ne7 and 4...d5 is an easy solution to get equal positions. The odd looking knight goes to g6 or d5 (depending on what white does) which defends his extra pawn. White can regain it, but the resulting position is really level.

This may make it unattractive at the top, but even more so, if black goes for the best lines then black can get the sort of small advantage white is supposed to have out of the opening. So if you're a top player known for the KG the people with bargain solutions get easy equality, and the people who put in work against you get good winning chances!

u0110001101101000
Fixing_A_Hole wrote:
[OP] is trying to figure out whether its better to play 1.d4 if you're going for a win.  

Maybe I did misunderstand him then.

As for 1.d4 being just as effective for white to play for a draw, that's not what I've heard from some titled player commentary... but I'm neither a 1.d4 player nor titled so I'll have to leave it at that I guess.

Musikamole

0110001101101000 wrote:

Fixing_A_Hole wrote:

[OP] is trying to figure out whether its better to play 1.d4 if you're going for a win.  

---

Correct, at top level. At my level, winning chances abound, regardless the opening played.

World Championship Game 3, Carlsen - Karjakin, Ruy Lopez/Berlin Defense, commentators said Carlsen was playing into his strength, looking to squeeze out the full point from a small positional edge, from a drawish position.

---

'' The hegemony of 1.e4 came to an end in the KRAMNIK - KASPAROV MATCH (2000). Kasparov continued to employ 1.e4, but Kramnik refused to enter the sharp lines Kasparov coveted and instead defused the whole opening by resurrecting the Berlin Defense." - Silman

Shuloon

Musikamole wrote:

Heard this comment more than once during the 2016 canditates tournament. It surprised me, thinking of the Sicilian defense and others. I'm guessing the remark is in response to the Petroff, maybe the Ruy Lopez/Berlin defense. Now 1.d4 is the move to play for a win? I look forward to your comments. Thanks!

If I remember it correctly, there were a bunch of real quiet Italian game openings in that last candidates tourney. That might be why the commentators said that about the players choosing e4. In general though I don't think e4 is any more drawish than any other first move.

Musikamole

richie_and_oprah wrote:

1. d4 allows better chances to create complications and to create positions in which both sides maintain greater chances of pawn tension and flexible pawn structures.

---

I get the idea of "greater complications". It gives your opponent more chances to make mistakes. I'm guessing that "maintaining the pawn tension" allows for the position to evolve from simple/symmetrical all the way to unclear/incomprehensible, which leads to anything but drawish games.

toiyabe
Musikamole wrote:

0110001101101000 wrote:

Fixing_A_Hole wrote:

[OP] is trying to figure out whether its better to play 1.d4 if you're going for a win.  

---

Correct, at top level. At my level, winning chances abound, regardless the opening played.

World Championship Game 3, Carlsen - Karjakin, Ruy Lopez/Berlin Defense, commentators said Carlsen was playing into his strength, looking to squeeze out the full point from a small positional edge, from a drawish position.

---

'' The hegemony of 1.e4 came to an end in the KRAMNIK - KASPAROV MATCH (2000). Kasparov continued to employ 1.e4, but Kramnik refused to enter the sharp lines Kasparov coveted and instead defused the whole opening by resurrecting the Berlin Defense." - Silman

 

Regarding the Carlsen/Karjakin 3rd game, the commentators weren't talking about 1.e4 by itself being drawish, they were talking specifically about the 5.Re1 line of the Berlin which is drawish due to the symmetrical pawn structure.  

toiyabe
LuisEREstenssoro wrote:
 

 

Why are you posting some stupid game here?  

toiyabe
LuisEREstenssoro wrote:
Fixing_A_Hole escribió:
LuisEREstenssoro wrote:
 

 

Why are you posting some stupid game here?  

are you trying to fix a hole?

Musikamole

My topic: 1.e4 is drawish?

World Chess Championship 2016 - Three out of first four games starting with 1.e4!

Game three went seven hours. Game four went on for six and a half hours, 94 moves! Karjakin made a bad move in both games, giving Carlsen winning chances.  Fabiano Caruana tweets: "Honestly impressive defense. Not every day that Carlsen fails to win 2 clearly better positions in a row. '' Were both players testing the waters with 1.e4, or trying to score a win early in the match? 

Game One - 1.d4 Trompowski Attack (1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5)

Game Two - 1.e4 Ruy Lopez/Morphy Defense (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6)

Game Three - 1.e4 Ruy Lopez/Berlin Defense (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6)

Game Four - 1.e4 Ruy Lopez /Morphy Defense (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6) 

Carlsen played the Morphy Defense. Karjakin played the Berlin Defense. Trompowski Attack uncommon at top level. A surprise weapon by Carlsen? 

Musikamole

Ziryab wrote:

I played both sides of the King's Gambit in a game 10 tournament on Saturday, winning both with White and with Black. With Black I sacrificed two pawns for the initiative, then won material when my opponent (a former student now getting training from a FM) missed a zwischenzug. My former student and I followed Schulten -- Morphy 1857 through move seven, a game we had studied together two years ago.

----

Wow! How did you sacrifice two pawns playing Black? Besides White gambiting a pawn on move two, Black has the Falkbeer Countergambit, giving up one pawn (1.e4 e5 2.f4 d5 3.exd5 e4).

penandpaper0089
keisyzrk wrote:

…BUT WITH 1.e4 c5 2.Na3+- The game is over. computer at depth 110001101101000 claims mate.

 

I had fun with this but couldn't find anything after 2...d5.

ilikewindmills
I believe Caro-Kann is very drawish.
Ziryab
Musikamole wrote:

Ziryab wrote:

 

I played both sides of the King's Gambit in a game 10 tournament on Saturday, winning both with White and with Black. With Black I sacrificed two pawns for the initiative, then won material when my opponent (a former student now getting training from a FM) missed a zwischenzug. My former student and I followed Schulten -- Morphy 1857 through move seven, a game we had studied together two years ago.

----

Wow! How did you sacrifice two pawns playing Black? Besides White gambiting a pawn on move two, Black has the Falkbeer Countergambit, giving up one pawn (1.e4 e5 2.f4 d5 3.exd5 e4).

 

It was the Falkbeer. It was game 10 + 3 second delay. I did not record the moves, but through my seventh move (I may have deviated on move 8 with 8...Re8+--I don't recall. During the tournament, I played sixteen games, so the memory of them fades) , we followed:

Ninjakiwi17

I agree, e4 is a dead draw

aln67

Ha ha, some author quoted by Watson said "After E4, white are agonizing" :-)

greenibex

would you rather draw or lose ?

Musikamole

@Ziryab - Really nice Falkbeer miniature. Thanks for posting!

Musikamole

greenibex wrote:

would you rather draw or lose ?

----

Drawing when stuck in a bad position can feel like a win. In games 3 and 4, Karjakin made some mistakes resulting in bad/losing positions, yet deprived Carlsen the full point with incredible defense. It inspires me to not resign a lost position as soon as I usually do.