A chess rule.

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Avatar of Si-Eric
laughdamitlaugh wrote:

The OP raised a very relevant question and I would like to thank him for that. I've thought about the logic behind that rule every time I've stumbled upon it. If I'm not mistaken this is one of the most debated (pin) rules of chess. Did a little research and the best explanation I've found so far is that "the first to deliver a checkmate - wins!".

 

For instance, consider this position:

[FEN "6k1/5ppp/6r1/8/8/1R6/PPP5/1K6 w - - 0 1"]

Which ever side is the first to move will WIN by checkmate. REGARDLESS of the fact that the opponent ALSO has checkmate in one. Applied in this case it means that the white Knight will capture the black king BEFORE the black Queen captures the open white King and thus ending the game.

 

Now this is a logical explanation for the rule. BUT! It's NOT a logical explanation to why THIS rule is chosen OVER the rule of absolute pin. Why can the white Knight move to capture the enemy King when it wouldn't be allowed to open up an attack on his King in ANY other case?


If you have ever seen that picture that can be seen both as a duck and a rabbit, then you should be able to understand this situation. The OP and those who disagree with him look at the same problem. They just see different aspects of it. I hope this post resolves some of the issues in the thread

 

 

 

 

 

 

Very nice,only thing is that I didn't mean for it to be a "one or the other",

Both the checkmate rule and this Absolute pinned piece disable  rule  can coexist.  (APPD)

I see both a rabbit/bunny and a duck,though it must be said that it is more duck than bunny.

Avatar of jaaas
laughdamitlaugh wrote:

The OP raised a very relevant question and I would like to thank him for that. I've thought about the logic behind that rule every time I've stumbled upon it. If I'm not mistaken this is one of the most debated (pin) rules of chess. Did a little research and the best explanation I've found so far is that "the first to deliver a checkmate - wins!".

There is nothing to debate about. Those who question the logic behind a piece or pawn that is pinned to their own king being still dangerous to the opponent's king apparently have great trouble comprehending simple things. It has been explained thoroughly further up the thread.

By the way, many threads would not go in circles like they sadly often do if more people would bother to read the entire thread before feeling compelled to contribute. As it too often happens, a fallacy that had already been posted by someone two pages back and was subsequently debunked by someone else one page back is merrily being posted all over again, just because a third person didn't feel like actually reading the thread to see that what they intended to say has already been refuted.

Avatar of jaaas
laughdamitlaugh wrote:
Why can the white Knight move to capture the enemy King when it wouldn't be allowed to open up an attack on his King in ANY other case?
 

 

It shouldn't really be much of a mystery anymore why this is the case once you have looked at a simple example showcasing the difference.

 

 

If White captures the black king, he will thereby immediately win the game.

 

1...Kf5  2.NxK  1-0

 

The black king has put himself into check by moving to f5. It is now White's turn, and the white knight has one clear move, which wins the game - taking the black king. After this, the game is immediately over. The black rook's apparent threat towards the white king is meaningless in this situation, because Black has already lost the game through the loss of his king. White wins.

 

 

 

On the other hand, if White puts his own king in check by any move that does not capture the opposing king, then it's the white king that will be captured on the immediate next move, which loses the game for White.

 

1.NxQ  RxK  0-1

 

The white knight has exposed his own king by capturing the black queen. It is now Black's move - the black rook captures the white king, the game is over. Black wins.

Avatar of Lagomorph

Using the fiction of playing the game until one king is actually captured and taken off the board has its merits in demonstrating why the OP's proposed new rule has no logic.

To understand the current rules one must realise that a piece or pawn is capable of doing more that one thing at the same time. Attack more than one of the opponents pieces or block a check at the same time as delivering checkmate are two examples.

The current rules make quite clear that a piece does not somehow miraculously lose any of its powers (except the power to move) when it is being pinned.

I did ask the OP in an earlier post the following question:

Consider this situation if the OP rule suggestion applied......

my opponent moves his queen to check my king. Instead of blocking the check or moving my king , I instead move a rook on a different rank or file  thus pinning his queen against his king. Have I negated check ?



Avatar of Deanograyjag

That's why it's called chess

Avatar of RICK29

good point Lagomorph, in analyzing this problem first of all we must consider whose move?  lets go back a move earlier in your diag.when the Q + k ,here its B to move, and thereby compels the B king to move out of check but @op situational diag. it was his move and decides to take the wB.

I stated that this would be legal IF it wasnt for the rule: A king cant take a piece that is defended by another piece w/c simply means, that i meant;

that move of his is illegal. now (if) considering that this move is legal it is now w to move and thereby goes on to take the king lifting the knight but in the process opens his own king to a check by bQ. now its a matter of who takes out the king first Knightrider or wonder woman.LaughingEmbarassed 

Avatar of RICK29
Avatar of RICK29

Eureka!

Avatar of RICK29

@107 1st diag.same situation arrises There was a # @ 3... ... i leave this for you to find .Its B to move can he # the Bking while opening his own king w/ +. this would be the best ex. to strengthen ops' pt.

Avatar of Si-Eric

Wow!!this topic has really taken off!!

It has gotten more views than my profile!!!!!!!!!

(Looks like I touched on a soft spot)

Avatar of condude2

Only because its such a ridiculous proposition that has been proposed so often :)

Avatar of Spongebob_007
Avatar of Spongebob_007

that was a very easy game

Avatar of Si-Eric

WoW!

That's a crazy game!!

Avatar of KvothDuval

ok so we have all agreed that si erics rule is dumb so what are we still doing here?

Avatar of Spongebob_007

I think it`s ok

Avatar of RICK29

if you say so, lol.

Avatar of Jion_Wansu
Si-Eric wrote:

This is a chess rule that I think should be changed...Here's an example.

My new rule says that the king is able to take of the Bishop Because the white Knight is pinned to his King:

 

If your king takes the bishop then the knight takes your king, then the game is over and you lose, just like in blitz and bullet games

Avatar of RICK29

it's over the king does'nt have to take the B.

Avatar of soothsayer8

OP, what you are essentially saying is that the black king should be able to put itself in check, but the white king should not. Your rule is hypocritical. If black is allowed to move in check and take the bishop, white must be allowed to move in check and take the king. Game over.