NomadicKnight wrote:
Wouldn't an always drawn game be a boring game, not a perfect one?
Assuming that a perfect game is a game with no mistakes, I think it would be always a draw. And yes, perfect is always boring.
A perfect game of chess is always a draw. Discuss.
Sort:
Easy draw of course
66 perfect games, 66 draws, and counting
https://www.iccf.com/event?id=100104
Dec 10, 2023
0
#46
In what sense are these considered "perfect"? Without first having solved Chess, we don't even know for sure, what the best first move for White is.
@47
There is no best first move for white: 1 e4, 1 d4, 1 c4, 1 Nf3 all draw with perfect play.
Dec 10, 2023
0
#48
CraigIreland wrote:
In what sense are these considered "perfect"? Without first having solved Chess, we don't even know for sure, what the best first move for White is.
@tygxc believes he has a big red telephone on his desk connecting directly to God, which allows him to authoritatively answer any chess related question. Most of the rest of us are sceptical.
Some further points.
The games he quotes were played under ICCF rules, which correspond neither to FIDE basic rules nor FIDE competition rules. Whether or not "chess" is a draw may well depend on which of those sets of rules is the game we are calling "chess". (@tygxc will assert that his big red telephone tells him the answer is the same for all three - despite the tablebases having already demonstrated many thousands of millions of positions where the answer is not the same.)
I picked out three games at random from his link. All agreed draws, with the number of pieces remaining between 12 and 26 - well beyond current tablebases. These games would appear to be irrelevant to the question, whichever set of rules you assume.
Mar 26, 2024
0
#49
The thing with two knights mating is that the opposing king will have to make a mistake. There's no way to force mate which is what I should have said initially, sorry for the confusion.
personally don't think its true, theoretically there is always someone who is at an advantage unless every position can be calculated into a draw
NVM the post below depends if chess is open to an infinite amount of correct games or closed to draws
perfection in its literal sense is impossible its like giving infinity a value. AND for a game to be perfect it must have infinite depth and analysing power.
basically, infinity is impossible
x6px wrote:
NVM the post below depends if chess is open to an infinite amount of correct games or closed to draws
perfection in its literal sense is impossible its like giving infinity a value. AND for a game to be perfect it must have infinite depth and analysing power.
basically, infinity is impossible
id like to be proven wrong in any way
Mar 26, 2024
0
#54
If black and white always play perfect moves, its a draw. That should be pretty simple to understand. Remember, white can't always win with a piece advantage. Black can give up a whole piece, knight or bishop, and still draw. It's actually not hard for black to draw, its a lot harder for white to avoid the draw but if properly played by black will eventually be forced into a draw.
I agree
97 perfect games, all draws, or 50 days per 10 move time exceeded in drawn position.
https://www.iccf.com/event?id=100104
The only thing proven by this thread is that Tygxc will never learn...
What do you mean by perfect? That's the main part. A game between engines still sometimes ends in decisive result, so I don't understand what you mean by perfect.
A perfect game is a game where both players play optimally.
Optimal play is play without errors.
An error is a move that worsens the game state won/drawn/lost.
The linked 97 perfect games were played by ICCF (grand)masters with engines at a pace of 50 days per 10 moves.
The point is that whatever white tries, black has several ways to draw against it.
@40
neither (a) or (c) can be perfect games.
(b) can be a perfect game,
You're assuming without justification that the starting position is a theoretical draw.
If that were indeed true then (b) would be a perfect game (not just could be).
but also (d) a 7 men endgame table base draw is reached or (e) a position is repeated 3-fold.
(d) and (e) may be perfect games only if the starting position is a draw and then they may or may not be perfect.
Whether they would be games depends on the rules in force and whether the relevant draws have been claimed, except, in the first case, if the 7 man tablebase is reached in a terminal condition under the rules in force, e.g. expiration of the 75 move rule or a dead position.
Under FIDE basic rules, for example, they would be partial games.
Look at the perfect games I linked to.
It is unlikely that you linked to any.
@23
"This game follows Syzygy tablebase optimal moves"
++ This is not a game. A game starts with the initial position.
Quite so. I should have said "partial game".
It does however demonstrate that SF can't be used to determine perfect moves.
@28
Those players are ex aequo World Champions and nobody could take a point from them so far.
It is correspondence chess at 5 days/move average, engines allowed.
Which says nothing about the topic. The question is obviously about theoretically perfect games, not the results of practical matches.