A TALLY OF DATABASE-USERS & NON-USERS

I like the game analysis board for tough moves sometimes and miss it on the other site I use.

So you people are actually cross-checking your moves elsewhere; how bizarre.

why do you do that,  I am truly fascinated ??

Rhetorical questions...

I wonder what happens to the quality of the games of Users if they use outside sources only during unrated games.  Will they have a difficult time during rated games then because they are already used to playing with outside sources? What may happen if they play OTB? Or would they be better off without them?

And I wonder how the quality of the games of Non-Users would be if they use outside sources, too, in their unrated games. Will they find them as nuisance as they are used to play without them?  What happens to their rated games then? Or would they be better off with them in the unrated games?

It's a little difficult to determine what you mean or to whom you are directing your enquiry. In another discussion (http://www.chess.com/forum/view/community/who-is-player-x), I listed these facilities that are legitimately available to everyone during turn-based chess on this site.

Correspondence Chess facilities (major) used during a game

[ ] books

[ ] opening databases e.g. Game Explorer

[ ] the web or other legitimate resource

[ ]  Analysis Board

Ease-of-Play / Multiple Game Management facilities

[ ] press SUBMIT to move (i.e. not Touch Move)

[ ] make notes during the game (either on paper or in the Notes tab)

[ ] use the Moves tab to rewind the game

[ ] use the Details tab to show captured pieces

[ ] use the Details tab to flip the board

[ ] display the algebraic co-ordinates on the board

[ ] highlight the square of the last move made

[ ] use Conditional Moves

Several of these facilities, including the Analysis Board, provide a means of cross-checking one's moves. That is one of the guiding principles of Correspondence Chess, which is the basis underlying turn-based chess played on this site.

As of 10/8/08:

Users - 85, Non-Users -100

I don't think those questions are rhetorical, more like real inquiries.

I think you would need to divide users into different groups. If someone uses databases, books, etc to learn, and actually is learning, then just like people who use those resources to study while not playing, presumably at some point their rating would go up just because they are getting better.

If you are using these resources just to mimic moves without learning, presumably your rating won't improve and if you stop using them, you'll do worse. It would be like an OTB player having a bad hangover and not being able to remember any of his opening repertoire.

Another rhetorical question: what if the outside sources were used only against a computer opponent?

Depending upon which engine was used, it might whine: "you're being unfair!" IIRC, Chessmaster used to do this at version 4 - but I think it's been fixed in subsequent versions.

I'm not interested in having a rating that depends on how much outside help I take the time to consult. I use Game explorer to learn more about the options in various opening positions, the first three to six moves... that way I improve my understanding of opening options. Other than that I just do as well as I can. And every now and then between games I use mentor to study endgames or tactics.  I'm around the 1450 rank most of the time so for now I am just trying to get better. I play a lot of players who are a couple of hundred points above me, my rank and my ego suffer but I learn a lot.

I think that's the point that somehow many seemed to miss...its not about rating its about improving.

But you can't completely divorce ratings from level of ability. For someone who cares about ratings just for the sake of stroking his/her ego, real improvement would be unimportant. Hence the sorry cases of people getting two accounts and playing themselves to "boost" one rating.

But if you are interested in improvement, you can't entirely ignore ratings. We assume that ratings at least roughly reflect your ability so if your rating does not ever improve, it should be a good indication that your ability has not improved.

Just a thought... perhaps it's best for a player to challenge someone two games at once where:

1.  In one color, he/she uses any outside source, in an unrated game. Reason: an unrated game seems "psychologically" a practice game where one experiments and studies moves, patterns and variations. Thus, any outside help is most welcome.

2.  In the other color, he/she doesn't use any outside source, in a rated game.  Reason:  a rated game seems "psychologically" an official game where one plays almost like OTB, with the intent of playing with no help at all.  Also, one gets to have, one way or another, a more realistic online rating. 

What are your thoughts on this idea?

My profile now shows:

From 10/10/08, (1) In unrated games, I use any outside source like databases, books, analysis board, conditional moves, to experiment on different variations; and (2) In rated games, I don't use any outside source to simulate an Over the Board play in an online environment; thus having a more or less realistic online rating. (3) In my games with my co-CoT OTB Members, I play without any outside source.

Mainstreet, despite the way your idea shows that you are ready to have a go at another way of playing, it still shows which one you consider is the 'correct' or 'realistic' way of playing. As such it is still biased towards non-Users as the games in which you would use DBs, books etc. are only practise games.

Incidentally, the more higher rated players I play, the more they obviously use the games explorer DB for openings. I think we all need to accept that, since using the available tools is permissible, those who want to use them will do and the ratings system which is used on this site will reflect this. Thus a realistic rating is one which displays how you have performed against opponents, no matter whether you or they are a user or not. If you want a realistic OTB-style rating you would have to play rated games exclusively against other players who play the same way and expect all your opponents to exclusively play only OTB-style players as well. This is unrealistic and restrictive in the context of this site. The other option is just to play OTB and not compare ratings with chess.com! Ratings are only valid within the environment for which they were created.

Rated,unrated,user,non user I don't give a damn,I like to play and just play,win or lose,for it is only a game!

An excellent point, but I think we should recognize that even playing online games without outside aids is still far from realistic OTB play. There's no flow to the game, there's no time pressure, or psychological factors. It can really be something like a series of "find the best move" problems.

I respect your opinion, my friend.

But I still see Unrated games as exploratory, experimental - let's try this move and see what happens, and review of different variations.  Thus, a study.

The Rated games, I consider as something similar to OTB where self brain work must rise to the occasion, with the benefit in this site of having at least no real OTB time pressure.

Again, I respect your opinion. And perhaps you have to respect mine, too, right? Of course, as there's no other way. It's just a sharing of opinions. Life.

Stay fit, and play well.

As of 10/10/08:

Users - 85, Non-Users -101

Currently in Turn-based, there are only two classes of games (rated, unrated) and only one set of stats.

One of the ideas on Wishlist#4 was to be able to tag games. If these were user-created tags such as DB-assisted, experimental, ... and if the statistics could be applied separately to various sets of games (e.g. DB-assisted, unassisted, ...), then Unrated games might no longer be viewed as second class.

Unrated games as second class? For me, they're not second class at all but simply of a different class.

As my only opportunity to play chess is online, I then see the Unrated as "my study", and the Rated as "my games". 

For those who are so fortunate to play live OTB and live online Chess, then they might even consider turn-based online chess as their study.

 And proud to be,as for the rest,frankly darling I don't give a damn,let's play,less blah blah!