Algebraic vs Descriptive Notation...

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Avatar of PhilHarris
magipi wrote:

Fun fact: "descriptive notation" was already considered outdated and backwards in the 1840s (yes, 180 years ago!), when Paul Morphy was just a kid. The whole world got rid of it in the next few decades, except (to no one's surprise) Britain and the US.

Fun Fact: "Outdated" is a meaningless word. An attempt to BS people into thinking that their opinions and preferences are somehow objective facts. There's no inherent virtue in trendiness, it just is.

The real fact is that you can't be a serious player in the English-speaking world without knowing Descriptive. Too many books and magazines are available no other way, and are unlikely to be re-issued. You don't have to know it if you're a beginner, but eventually you will. If you find it too difficult, you're probably going to find chess itself to be too difficult.

Avatar of Tempetown
PhilHarris wrote:
magipi wrote:

Fun fact: "descriptive notation" was already considered outdated and backwards in the 1840s (yes, 180 years ago!), when Paul Morphy was just a kid. The whole world got rid of it in the next few decades, except (to no one's surprise) Britain and the US.

Fun Fact: "Outdated" is a meaningless word. An attempt to BS people into thinking that their opinions and preferences are somehow objective facts. There's no inherent virtue in trendiness, it just is.

The real fact is that you can't be a serious player in the English-speaking world without knowing Descriptive. Too many books and magazines are available no other way, and are unlikely to be re-issued. You don't have to know it if you're a beginner, but eventually you will. If you find it too difficult, you're probably going to find chess itself to be too difficult.

Avatar of chadbroski123

https://www.chess.com/club/war-on-d4-branch-of-e4-lovers/join

Avatar of Tempetown

OMG! Where does one even begin? The word 'outdated' is meaningless? Is that in a general sense or just how you feel it applies to the issue at hand? You can't be a serious player in the English-speaking world without knowing DN? Literally hundreds of thousands of English-speaking chess players who consider themselves serious players vehemently disagree with you. In fact there are hundreds of young chess masters and expert-level chess enthusiasts who were brought up on AN and barely care that DN even exists! Finally, with respect to written chess instruction, literally ALL of the most popular instructional chess classics have been reissued using AN. And the mere fact that you are seemingly unaware that the computer has rendered the vast majority if vintage chess publications moot demonstrates your lack of understanding. In short, you are incorrect on all three of your assertions. But, at least you are consistent!

Avatar of CincinnatiLimited

Are some of you saying that if I go enter a tournament and use descriptive when I write down my moves that I will be disqualified? I want to enjoy the game and would not even right anything down if that was allowed. To me this whole argument seems absurd. it is like telling someone that you have to speak English to your opponent while playing (necessary conversation only not interrupting the game) instead of another language. We are here to enjoy the game, why take away anyone's enjoyment over technicalities? What if your native language is not English and does not use the latin alphabet? Your use of letters or symbols would obviously be different. This whole issue seems to be turning an anthill in to Olympus Mons!

Avatar of Takadrenaline
CincinnatiLimited wrote:

Are some of you saying that if I go enter a tournament and use descriptive when I write down my moves that I will be disqualified?

I believe that is correct. I remember a few years ago, (like when Reagan was president, I think), and FIDE stopped accepting players writing down descriptive notation, we used to joke that when Fischer comes back, he'll be disqualified because he won't know the new rules!

At any rate, I believe algebraic notation in other alphabets, such as Cyrillic, obviously, for the Soviets, was explicitly permitted.

Avatar of chadbroski123

https://www.chess.com/club/war-on-d4-branch-of-e4-lovers/join

Avatar of long_quach
Royal_Fool wrote:

 whereas when they say G5, or C2, I'm having to "hunt" the square.

Buy a chess board with letters on the X axis and numbers on the Y axis.

I know I'm a genius.

In the mean time, get some practice.

Avatar of long_quach
Takadrenaline wrote:
CincinnatiLimited wrote:

Are some of you saying that if I go enter a tournament and use descriptive when I write down my moves that I will be disqualified?

I believe that is correct.

Oral history.

I played chess in a real USCF chess club. Time control was 90 minutes for 40 moves + 60 minutes.

You can write down the moves in any notation, as long as you can reconstruct the game. That is the purpose of a record. It can be VHS or Betamax, pan-and-scan or interlace.

Avatar of long_quach
Royal_Fool wrote:

who prefer descriptive?

Nobody.

Descriptive is too error prone. Was that King or Queen? from White or Black's perspective?

Avatar of long_quach
long_quach wrote:
Royal_Fool wrote:

 whereas when they say G5, or C2, I'm having to "hunt" the square.

Buy a chess board with letters on the X axis and numbers on the Y axis.

I know I'm a genius.

It's a joke, but it's not a joke.

Rand McNally maps are in Algebraic Notation, before GPS (Global Positioning System) for you young'ins.


All the world is a stage. - Shakespeare.

Chess is a metaphor for life. - Chess players say that.

Avatar of long_quach
VULPES_VULPES wrote:

I call it "Vector Notation". What do you think?

It's called "dead reckoning" and it doesn't work in the modern world. By modern, I mean the invention of writing.


Frank Zane, the greatest bodybuilder, even better than Arnold Schwarzenegger, would give dead reckoning directions to his house. Go to a landmark, walk left so many steps, forward so many steps, see a restaurant, etc..

If you can find his house, it demonstrates that you can follow directions, then he'll teach you bodybuilding.

Avatar of Takadrenaline
long_quach wrote:

You can write down the moves in any notation, as long as you can reconstruct the game. That is the purpose of a record. It can be VHS or Betamax, pan-and-scan or interlace.

Article 8: The recording of the moves

8.1 How the moves shall be recorded:

8.1.1 In the course of play each player is required to record his/her own moves and those of his/her opponent in the correct manner, move after move, as clearly and legibly as possible, in one of the following ways:

8.1.1.1 by writing in the algebraic notation (Appendix C), on the paper ‘scoresheet’ prescribed for the competition.

8.1.1.2 by entering moves on the FIDE certified ‘electronic scoresheet’ prescribed for the competition.

Avatar of long_quach
Takadrenaline wrote:
long_quach wrote:

You can write down the moves in any notation, as long as you can reconstruct the game. That is the purpose of a record. It can be VHS or Betamax, pan-and-scan or interlace.

Article 8: The recording of the moves

8.1 How the moves shall be recorded:

8.1.1 In the course of play each player is required to record his/her own moves and those of his/her opponent in the correct manner, move after move, as clearly and legibly as possible, in one of the following ways:

8.1.1.1 by writing in the algebraic notation (Appendix C), on the paper ‘scoresheet’ prescribed for the competition.

8.1.1.2 by entering moves on the FIDE certified ‘electronic scoresheet’ prescribed for the competition.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.


I chose my words very carefully.

Oral history.

Then you go on giving me written history.


What is the purpose of a record?

Is to reconstruct a game. Just like a VHS tape, or Betamax. Pan-and-scan or interlace (tv signals).

I'm telling you oral history. Oral history has more weight than written history.

Avatar of long_quach
long_quach wrote:
 

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.


I chose my words very carefully.

Oral history.

Then you go on giving me written history.


What is the purpose of a record?

Is to reconstruct a game. Just like a VHS tape, or Betamax. Pan-and-scan or interlace (tv signals).

I'm telling you oral history. Oral history has more weight than written history.

What if the person is blind? and he records it in Braille, "a tactile writing system"?

Avatar of long_quach
long_quach wrote:
 

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.


I chose my words very carefully.

Oral history.

Then you go on giving me written history.


What is the purpose of a record?

Is to reconstruct a game. Just like a VHS tape, or Betamax. Pan-and-scan or interlace (tv signals).

I'm telling you oral history. Oral history has more weight than written history.

You kids don't even know what oral history is.

The only history you know is written history that you regurgitate.


What if a person record a game in Figurine Algebraic?

♘f3

You kids don't even know what the question is, let alone the answer.

Avatar of Ziryab

I keep finding a need to dip into Averbakh’s eight volume series on the endgame. They might have been in algebraic in the original Russian, but the translations that I have in English all use English descriptive notation. Good thing that I learned to read this notation 50 years ago.

Avatar of long_quach
Takadrenaline wrote:
long_quach wrote:

You can write down the moves in any notation, as long as you can reconstruct the game. That is the purpose of a record. It can be VHS or Betamax, pan-and-scan or interlace.

Article 8: The recording of the moves

8.1 How the moves shall be recorded:

8.1.1 In the course of play each player is required to record his/her own moves and those of his/her opponent in the correct manner, move after move, as clearly and legibly as possible, in one of the following ways:

8.1.1.1 by writing in the algebraic notation (Appendix C), on the paper ‘scoresheet’ prescribed for the competition.

8.1.1.2 by entering moves on the FIDE certified ‘electronic scoresheet’ prescribed for the competition.

blah, blah, blah

What about Long Algebraic?

Instead of

Nf3

N-g1-f3?

Avatar of long_quach
long_quach wrote:
Takadrenaline wrote:
CincinnatiLimited wrote:

Are some of you saying that if I go enter a tournament and use descriptive when I write down my moves that I will be disqualified?

I believe that is correct.

Oral history.

I played chess in a real USCF chess club. Time control was 90 minutes for 40 moves + 60 minutes.

Have you ever played such long time control? Face-to-face?

That is the power of oral history.

You kids think you can pull up "facts" off the Internet, and now you're smart!

Avatar of long_quach

@Takadrenaline

I know you don't know what oral history is. So I'll teach you.

It's "my bro told me, and then I told my bro, and then he tells his bro, or his brotege (protege) . . . That is oral history. Most things can only be learned from oral history.