Blitz and Bullet are not chess

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TestPatzer
llama45 wrote:
TestPatzer wrote:
Marie-AnneLiz wrote:
SimonSeirup a écrit :

GM Allan Stig Rasmussen from Denmark, recommend players to play blitz to improve.

He must be the only one!

I took lessons from a National Master several years ago.

He recommended blitz to many of his students, especially the most timid ones, as he found that blitz forced them to make decisions at the board, taught them to value the initiative, and encouraged them to move past the hurdle of constantly second-guessing themselves, as "the ticking clock can't be pleaded with or reasoned with".

I had a GM recommend to me that blitz will improve my time management issues OTB (I'm very slow).

He was wrong, it was the opposite. I'm slow because I play blitz. When you never do classical time control length analysis, then once your in front of the board you'll calculate in circles not knowing what to look for.

In some cases blitz may be the answer, but in my case it was timed exercises. It could be tactical puzzles or endgame studies, but the exercise would be to decide on a move within __ minutes (I chose 5). So do all the analysis I wanted, but it MUST be over in 5 minutes or less.

That helped me set analysis goals and structure my thinking.

Timed exercises are good, too. Drills, puzzles.

But let's be fair to my former coach: he didn't say ONLY play blitz. Extensive study was still the main part of the process. Opening theory. Endgame drills. Positional puzzles. Standard games.

The blitz was encouraged to help develop the specific skills mentioned above.

IMO, blitz also helps with time management. Before playing blitz, I used to panic when the clock got low.

I drew an easily won ending (R+R+K+P vs. R+K+P) in my second tournament, because my clock got under a minute and I panicked.

Now a low clock doesn't bother me in the slightest.

TestPatzer
Marie-AnneLiz wrote:

I know a national master that think the climate change is a hoax and that the earth is flat!

The consensus among coach is for any beginners to Think! carefully on Each move!

There's a point of diminishing returns when a player (especially a beginner) is given too much time to think.

Some (myself, in the past) might even reach a point where they become so overwhelmed by all the possible moves and lines that they have idea what to do. "Analysis paralysis", as the saying goes.

Having a shorter duration on the game clock can help with that.

Coaches have differing methods, for sure. Some never allow their students to play blitz. Some encourage it. Some never even allow their students to play at all (only study, analyze, do drills), until they reach a certain level of proficiency.

Keep in mind that when coaching beginners, often a lot of them are kids.

Blitz is a welcoming time format for young players, especially when it comes to casual games, against fellow students, for them to practice new ideas and techniques.

Marie-AnneLiz

Not allowing beginner players to play the game is stupid!

Blitz ( under 10 min) is not a welcoming format for anyone who want to learn under 1200.

 

Ziryab

I have run over 100 youth tournaments with time controls of 30 0 and 25 5. Most games finish is less that ten minutes. Improvement results from slowing down.

 

Of course, for a player to use more than two seconds on a move, they must have something useful to think about. You cannot simply tell them to calculate; you must give the knowledge of how to calculate. It is useful, for instance to start with a list: what pieces are undefended, what contacts exist, what checks are possible, ... Always consider both sides.

NubbyCheeseking
Marie-AnneLiz wrote:

Not allowing beginner players to play the game is stupid!

Blitz ( under 10 min) is not a welcoming format for anyone who want to learn under 1200.

 

Wanna hear a funny story?

Last year I was 700 blitz 800 rapid and b9/8 for my chess team if I am correct

I played blitz, 1000 rapid, 1100 blitz, and dominated b6/7 for most of the season

So yes, blitz does help

JeffGreen333
Dark_Knight_50 wrote:
backwardinduction wrote:

Unless you have a really high rating and slow mind, rapid is not chess at all. I have watch several slow games here on chess.com and find that rapid are way more popular than standard game. In most rapid games, even high rating players make stupid moves so frequently, the only thing matters is time. Although some players are so good that they can make checkmate in 5 seconds, most players can not do that at all. So far as I see, chess is a game that need careful thinking and careful thinking takes time. Moving pieces just to see who can move faster is kind of childish, this make chess ugly. I suggest chess.com forbid those players whose rating lower than 3000 playing rapid

WHAT,no!!!

I think he meant to say "speed chess" or "bullet chess" rather than rapid.  

NubbyCheeseking

Granted the tc was 31 minute no increment, but still

JeffGreen333
Ziryab wrote:
JeffGreen333 wrote:  
Good point.  Ok, FOR ME, 3/0 is all about speed, because accuracy is completely out the window.  lol   I'm guessing that Super-GM's have their opening repertoires memorized 20-30 moves deep though, so most of their bullet games are played from memory.  Us patzers either can't memorize that deep or don't have time to memorize our openings that deep.   So, is speed an element of skill, memory or a combination of both?   

They know openings well, but more important are the many thousands of patterns they recognize in a heartbeat. I’m much weaker, but I instantly recognize at least a thousand patterns and know how to play when I see them. One that I see, but will misplay when there is no time for calculation is the classic bishop sacrifice on h7/h2. Masters know this one better than I do, and hence instantly perceive whether the defensive resources are adequate (making the sacrifice unsound). I simply play it and take my chances, half the time to my detriment.

Kotov, Think Like a Grandmaster lists the necessary defensive resources and I have this book. I could study this section to improve my instant recognition of when it works and when it does not.

I wish I had that book.  Sacrifices are one of my weaknesses.   I hardly ever sac.   Therefore, I don't know the patterns related to sacs either.

SeniorPatzer

#512.  Rxh3+ is the first move.

Ziryab

Indeed

JeffGreen333
Ziryab wrote:
JeffGreen333 wrote:
llama45 wrote:
JeffGreen333 wrote:

Us patzers either can't memorize that deep or don't have time to memorize our openings that deep.   So, is speed an element of skill, memory or a combination of both?   

Memory is a big part of it, but not memorized openings, it's more to do with pattern recognition.

Maybe a reasonable example... if I ask you what 2x2 is you would say 4. Not because you memorized it per se, you didn't search your memory right? The answer just pops into your head because you've known it for so long.

That's how some chess positions are. Not only in the opening, but all game long. Tactical solutions, strategic solutions, pawn structure, setting up for the endgame on move 20, executing the endgame on move 60, and on and on. Some answers just pop into the experienced player's head.

Maybe for Super-GM's with photographic/eidetic memories, that's true.   Candidate moves don't just pop into my head though.   I go straight from memory of the book moves to calculation.   I can recognize some mating patterns and endgame patterns, but when I leave book, it takes me MUCH longer to move (being a perfectionist), which is why I will always lose G/5 (or faster) games on time.  I'm only a 2000 daily player, an 1850 classic player and a 1600 rapid player and I never play games faster than G/10, so it might be different for the big boys.

 

Pattern recognition is fundamentally a different animal than eidetic memory. Patterns are the significant aspects of the position on the board in front of you. Someone with eidetic (“photographic”) memory sees and remembers everything, the insignificant as well as the significant.

The late Alfred Binet, often credited with having invented the intelligence test, in his first published study, studied the minds of chess masters. He was interested in photographic memory, which he hypothesized might be a factor is chess skill. His research showed him that it was not. What chess masters perceived was not the board as a whole, but relationships between the several pieces—what Yuri Averbakh would call “contacts” in his seminal Chess Tactics for Advanced Players. Binet’s work built the foundation on which later work concerning chess memory would be built.

Chase and Simon are noteworthy in their development of pattern recognition in the early 1960s and thereafter. Anders Ericcson’s work on expertise and the training of expertise through deliberate practice built on Chase and Simon’s foundation. IIRC, one of the two had been his professor (I think Chase).

 

Eidetic memory is more likely detrimental to chess skill than helpful.

(I understand that some chess masters have claimed the opposite, but none of them have a clear grasp of the research—rather they perpetrate long-refuted myths through their ignorance.)

Susan Polgar does help explain the research in a Google video that was made 15 years ago or so. It is called My Beautiful Brain. The episode that features Polgar also featured a young violinist, a prodigy who performed at Madison Sauare Garden at the age of nine or ten.

Ok, sounds good.  How do you explain blindfold chess then?   If they don't have eidetic memories, how can they play without seeing the pieces?   I certainly can't do that, so it must be a special mental gift that only some people possess.

JeffGreen333
Ziryab wrote:

An example of pattern recognition from a book on checkmates that I am writing for beginners. This position arose in a blitz game two years ago. I made the correct moves, and likely did not use more than two seconds. I could track down the game and find the move times. I do know it was a 3 0 game and that one second is my typical move time in such games.

During the game itself, I would have been aware of many contacts on the board, but now when I see this position, my eyes instantly focus on the lower-right corner where a familiar checkmate is imminent. 

Black to move


Ok.  It took me about 10 seconds to find the mate and that's after you pointed out where it was.   It might have taken me several minutes to find it if you hadn't pointed it out.   That's if I even found it at all.   

Ziryab

When I play blindfold chess, I see the critical patterns and remember the moves well enough to reconstruct the positions on less critical pieces. But, I am not very good at it and have only played one blindfold game at a time. For me, I need a quiet room, and I find it easier if I can look at a blank chessboard while playing. I have played a blindfold game while also playing two other games with the boards in front of me. I was able in my mind to see two positions on one of the boards in front of me: the one on it, and the one on the other side of the room where the player was calling out his moves.

I remembered incorrectly the title of the video featuring Susan Polgar. I have embedded in below. There is a scene where a truck drives past where she is sitting in front of a cafe. The truck has a chess position on the side of it from a real game. Polgar is able to reconstruct the position quickly after seeing the image a few seconds. At the end of the street, the truck turns around and drives by a second time. Another chess position is visible, but not from a real game. Polgar cannot reconstruct it. The explanation is that it lacks the logical patterns that she uses.

In my experience playing blindfold, it is harder against weaker players. The chaos they create can be harder to visualize.

JeffGreen333
Ziryab wrote:

When I play blindfold chess, I see the critical patterns and remember the moves well enough to reconstruct the positions on less critical pieces. But, I am not very good at it and have only played one blindfold game at a time. For me, I need a quiet room, and I find it easier if I can look at a blank chessboard while playing. I have played a blindfold game while also playing two other games with the boards in front of me. I was able in my mind to see two positions on one of the boards in front of me: the one on it, and the one on the other side of the room where the player was calling out his moves.

I remembered incorrectly the title of the video featuring Susan Polgar. I have embedded in below. There is a scene where a truck drives past where she is sitting in front of a cafe. The truck has a chess position on the side of it from a real game. Polgar is able to reconstruct the position quickly after seeing the image a few seconds. At the end of the street, the truck turns around and drives by a second time. Another chess position is visible, but not from a real game. Polgar cannot reconstruct it. The explanation is that it lacks the logical patterns that she uses.

In my experience playing blindfold, it is harder against weaker players. The chaos they create can be harder to visualize.

Yes, I've seen that video that you're referring to.   I was shocked that she could do that.   I have a 140 IQ, but I could never do that.   Some people's brains are just wired differently, I guess (different neural connections).   Maybe they are better at some things, but worse at others though.   Kinda like Rain Man.

Ziryab

Pattern recognition is easily trained. The "wiring" in Polgar's brain is the result of such training. That was her father's PhD thesis and his three daughters are his proof.

JeffGreen333
Ziryab wrote:

Pattern recognition is easily trained. The "wiring" in Polgar's brain is the result of such training. That was her father's PhD thesis and his three daughters are his proof.

Yeah, maybe if you start training them at a very young age, before their brains have stopped growing/developing.   It's too late for this 57 year old man though.   lol

sndeww
Ziryab wrote:

Of course, for a player to use more than two seconds on a move, they must have something useful to think about. You cannot simply tell them to calculate; you must give the knowledge of how to calculate. It is useful, for instance to start with a list: what pieces are undefended, what contacts exist, what checks are possible, ... Always consider both sides.

when I was younger, I was always told to calculate and if I lost it was because "I wasn't calculating". in truth, I was, I just wasn't looking for the right moves to calculate. I never improved (800 uscf for five years)

Ziryab

Never too late. I'm a couple of years past 57 and I'm still learning patterns.

Try this book: https://www.newinchess.com/a-modern-guide-to-checkmating-patterns

It is very good, and organized in a manner (developed by the late-Viktor Khenkin) that facilitates learning and memory.

JeffGreen333
Ziryab wrote:

Never too late. I'm a couple of years past 57 and I'm still learning patterns.

Try this book: https://www.newinchess.com/a-modern-guide-to-checkmating-patterns

It is very good, and organized in a manner (developed by the late-Viktor Khenkin) that facilitates learning and memory.

Thanks, but I'm on a limited, fixed income now and can't afford books.   

Ziryab
JeffGreen333 wrote:
Ziryab wrote:

Never too late. I'm a couple of years past 57 and I'm still learning patterns.

Try this book: https://www.newinchess.com/a-modern-guide-to-checkmating-patterns

It is very good, and organized in a manner (developed by the late-Viktor Khenkin) that facilitates learning and memory.

Thanks, but I'm on a limited, fixed income now and can't afford books.   

 

Tactical exercises help. As a non-paying member here, you get three per day. There are other sites that offer a larger number of exercises for free. I could recommend a few, but that sort of thing gets deleted by moderators.