Calculation ability is 100% genetic

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IAmAquarius
SmyslovFan wrote:
PedroMAlves wrote:
IAmAquarius wrote:

You should read Andrew Soltis's "what it takes to become a chess master". Soltis doesn't believe its even "just" calculation, "just" theory, or "just" anything, that holds players back. You should read it and maybe you'll understand what I mean.

Could you give me the link to that, please?

http://www.amazon.com/Takes-Become-Chess-Master-Batsford/dp/1849940266

It's a really good book. No one is better at breaking things down in original ways then soltis. Normally he doesn't mix his "meal books" and "real books", but I'm 90% sure this one is both. Learning how to take command of the priorities on the board got me to 1700 at one point.

zborg
SmyslovFan wrote:

Btw, I just want to make clear: some people do take longer to learn to play blindfold than others. But as long as they are motivated to learn, they can be taught.

I generally like what you say in these forums, @SmyslovF.  But...

Consider the following --

1)  Massive numbers of regular OTB chess players do not and (seemingly) cannot play blindfold chess.

2)  Where is the readily available public information for how this skill can be learned (or taught) ??

I think you get my drift.  Smile

P.S.  Good to see @Burgerboy has finally changed his username.

DrSpudnik
kco wrote:

To the OP, you troll thread isn't very good really. Maybe on your next subject try "stalemate is not a draw."

Which is better a Bishop or a Knight?

Murgen
zborg wrote:
SmyslovFan wrote:

Btw, I just want to make clear: some people do take longer to learn to play blindfold than others. But as long as they are motivated to learn, they can be taught.

I generally like what you say in these forums, @SmyslovF.  But...

Consider the following --

1)  Massive numbers of regular OTB chess players do not and (seemingly) cannot play blindfold chess.

2)  Where is the readily available public information for how this skill can be learned (or taught) ??

I think you get my drift.  

P.S.  Good to see @Burgerboy has finally changed his username.

1). Massive numbers of people who can speak their own native language can't speak French... this does not mean that speaking French is genetic and that no one born other than in a French speaking country is capable of learning it.

2). If a person wants to learn something they could always just <drumroll> work it out for themselves! Laughing

2a). One method would be to see how many moves into a game a person is capable of going blindfold (hopefully no one playing Black would be stumped after 1.e4). Anyway... if they are capable of making a first move they could try to see if they were up to the task of responding to White's second move... whatever that might be! Laughing

DiogenesDue
Omega_Doom wrote:

And what is your proof of opposite? I'm sure people are different. Someone can learn painting, someone can't. Someone can learn musical instrument, someone can't.

Not even remotely true.  Anyone (who is not developmentally disabled in some way) can learn to paint, or to play a musical instrument.

Omega_Doom
btickler wrote:
Omega_Doom wrote:

And what is your proof of opposite? I'm sure people are different. Someone can learn painting, someone can't. Someone can learn musical instrument, someone can't.

Not even remotely true.  Anyone (who is not developmentally disabled in some way) can learn to paint, or to play a musical instrument.

Yeah. The only question is how well. Painting requires good visualization like chess. I can draw a decent picture by looking at another one. But when i draw without any pictures(crutches) then my drawing is literaly crap. I know someone who can draw very good pictures because he sees an image in his mind's eyes. And I know a person who has an ear for music and he is a good guitarist. When it comes to me then hmm.., no way i can be a musician or a painter.

zborg

Such internet BS.

99 percent of chess players are "effectively lost" (via blindfold play), after only five or ten opening moves.

Most players wil be "lost in space" even sooner.

This we all know.

Wake Up.  What have you guys been drinking ??

u0110001101101000
zborg wrote:

Such internet BS.

99 percent of chess players are effectively lost (via blindfold play), after only five or ten opening moves.

This we all know.

Wake Up.  What have you guys been drinking ??

And according to chess.com, 50% of players are rated under 1000 in blitz, but that doesn't mean with a measly month's worth of practice they couldn't improve to a 4 digit rating.

DiogenesDue
Omega_Doom wrote:
btickler wrote:
Omega_Doom wrote:

And what is your proof of opposite? I'm sure people are different. Someone can learn painting, someone can't. Someone can learn musical instrument, someone can't.

Not even remotely true.  Anyone (who is not developmentally disabled in some way) can learn to paint, or to play a musical instrument.

Yeah. The only question is how well. Painting requires good visualization like chess. I can draw a decent picture by looking at another one. But when i draw without any pictures(crutches) then my drawing is literaly crap. I know someone who can draw very good pictures because he sees an image in his mind's eyes. And I know a person who has an ear for music and he is a good guitarist. When it comes to me then hmm.., no way i can be a musician or a painter.

But we're not talking about being a professional musician or painter, or, in the case of this thread, a blindfold simul player.  We're just talking about playing a single blindfold game.  The equivalent of watching a Bob Ross painting episode and trying to paint a landscape afterwards...

The OP would no doubt remark that I am proving his point, as he has for anyone that says they can play a blindfolded game...but I actually won the first blindfold game I ever attempted, against my ex-wife.  She was maybe a 1000ish player, so all I really had to do was remember the board positions and avoid complications.

It was far easier than I had imagined it would be before trying it.  Training?  Zero.  Prep?  Zero.  

I'm not assuming everyone can just do this the way I did it (nor would I assume they can't, either), but I firmly believe that anyone that worked at it a reasonable amount could play a blindfolded game and retain the piece positions in their mind.

I'm sure some people are convinced that they could not perform in a play because memorizing lines is hard...but with enough repetition and honest practice and effort, anyone can do this.

Omega_Doom
btickler wrote:

It was far easier than I had imagined it would be before trying it.  Training?  Zero.  Prep?  Zero.  

I'm not assuming everyone can just do this the way I did it (nor would I assume they can't, either), but I firmly believe that anyone that worked at it a reasonable amount could play a blindfolded game and retain the piece positions in their mind.

I'm sure some people are convinced that they could not perform in a play because memorizing lines is hard...but with enough repetition and honest practice and effort, anyone can do this.

Good for you. I tried sometime ago to play blindfold. All I could do was 3x3 board. I can see 3x3 board reasonably clear to play many moves. But when it comes to 4x4 I can't see it. I just can't. I can't imagine how to deal with 8x8 one. You guys who have that ability can't understand how it is  difficult for those who don't.

adumbrate

I see no board I just see the pieces when I play blindfold, but all I did was to imagine openings and then playing them further and further in my head, and now I can play pretty close to my level even blindfolded, just not completely tactical positions.

DiogenesDue
Omega_Doom wrote:
btickler wrote:

It was far easier than I had imagined it would be before trying it.  Training?  Zero.  Prep?  Zero.  

I'm not assuming everyone can just do this the way I did it (nor would I assume they can't, either), but I firmly believe that anyone that worked at it a reasonable amount could play a blindfolded game and retain the piece positions in their mind.

I'm sure some people are convinced that they could not perform in a play because memorizing lines is hard...but with enough repetition and honest practice and effort, anyone can do this.

Good for you. I tried sometimes ago to play blindfold. All I could do was 3x3 board. I can see 3x3 board reasonably clear to play many moves. But when it comes to 4x4 I can't see it. I just can't. I can't imagine how to deal with 8x8 one. You guys who have that ability can't understand how it is  difficult for those who don't.

Maybe that's the problem.  Maybe people are imagining that blindfold players have completely accurate recall of the entire board at every moment.

I didn't keep a 100% accurate 8x8 board in my mind at all...just the pieces in their general structure and the parts of the board that "mattered".  If you can visualize the moves of a standard Ruy Lopez or a Najdorf opening (and unless you actually memorize openings as pure lines and variations of notation alone, then you have to be visualizing *something*), it's just a matter of extending this out.

If I approached this as an exercise where I had to have perfect recall of 3x3, 4x4, then 5x5 boards, etc. I doubt I could do it either ;).  Or if you took an 8x8 board and placed pieces on it completely randomly, there's no way in hell I would be able to rattle off where everything is.  To me this is like learning to read...after a while the words and phrases cease to be patterns of individual letters and sounding out words is just not required.  If it were, nobody would ever read past 1st grade level.

Daria1996

the more you say, the more you get stupid.. Don't think others cannot do it because you cannot do.

zborg

Yes, a tiny minority can "DO IT."

This we also know.

SmyslovFan

Zborg, are you more interested in arguing against being able to learn to play blindfold, or learning how to play blindfold?

If you're only interested in arguing, have fun. 

yureesystem

The majority players cannot play blindfold, they cannot even select acurrately candidate moves or assess a position correctly and any player below master can  play blindfold. Right! That is bull! Laughing Even experts can't even analyze correctly, calculation is difficult skill to develop, two of the main problems is  organizing  your  thoughts and   correctly  assessing  a position.  

mdinnerspace

I had the pleasure of attending an exhibition by "Kolty".. George Koltanowski. He didn't play chess this time. 64 squares, peoples names and alot of numbers. He took a quick look and was then blindfolded. Could "remember" exactly every detail of the 64 squares. He holds the world's record of 34 simultaneous blindfold games and 56 games at 10 seconds a move. Secret? No secret. Photographic memerory. This ability many people posses to varying degrees. Not an expert in the field, however it makes sense this ability can be in inhanced with practice.

zborg

It's a parlor (and memory) trick.  From the 19th century of chess.

No more interesting now, than a hundred years ago.

Even if you learn it, your play will remain ridiculously weak -- for eons.

Forgive my bluntness, but what is the point of learning it, and playing poorly ??

Your efforts are perhaps better spent studying the Royal Game, and trying to hold you own against the 10 year old phenoms, moving up the rating ranks.

That's painful enough an experience.  Laughing

 

In any case --

"ONWARD...the field is yours, Kind Sir."  

mdinnerspace

Don't know about genetics but a photographic memory is not something that is taught or learned. Born with it as are chess, music and math prodigies.

mdinnerspace

Kolty was rated as an expert I think. Yes, it does not increase a persons chess skills. You may call it a parlor trick, but he was the best at it!