Can women be as good at chess?

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u0110001101101000
Megabyte wrote:
0110001101101000 wrote:
Megabyte wrote:
0110001101101000 wrote:

Stereotypically, female chess players have a very aggressive style, so whoever you saw say that was an idiot anyway lol.

Then consider this. Given a defensive strategy and a very aggressive gambit that are objectively equally good (i.e, have been measured to be roughly good by an engine), how likely are women to go for a risk-taking strategy and play the more aggressive gambit?

I don't have stats to answer that. The most famous female players, like J.Polgar, would undoubtedly sacrifice and try to rip your living guts out (figuratively of course haha).

I've only played 3 different women, but all of them were tactical, sacrificial players. My first female opponent sacrificed 3 (!) minor pieces before move 25 to try to checkmate me... I avoided mate but was down a queen for a rook in the end and I resigned.

But it's different to sacrifice because you have to and to sacrifice because you want to "show" you are a powerful opponent. Let's think of it the other way around: if these women were shown a best option that was not sacrificial and a dubious option that was sacrificial, how likely would they go for the dubious option?

Obviously I have no way of answering that.

But when you play an all gambit repertoire (like the last women I played and lost to) or when you sacrifice before move 25 in a calm position (like the lady I talked about in my first post) then it's choice.

BTW I played her a few years later and she changed her style to very clam and positional... this time she beat me in a drawn out endgame haha. We even talked about our first game and she told me she had really changed her approach.

Megabyte
trysts wrote:

Hot-blooded, cold-blooded? Look, if someone is a serial-killer, you can talk until you're blue about the semantics of the word "aggression", but it's sounds ridiculous. The act of murdering someone itself typifies extreme aggression. Whether it be by poison or proxy. Actors can fake extreme aggression for a role, but in real life, if humans could only communicate with their actions, then murder is at the top of the charts for displaying extreme aggression. 

I'm not talking about the moral aspects of aggression. The discussion here is about male vs. female behavior patterns. More specifically, how do they display aggression? There's a hot-blooded, "explosive" aggression type, and there's a cold-blooded, planned aggression type. This hot-blooded aggression (violent anger outbursts, joing gangs, etc) refers to behavior that's typically male. Cold-blooded and psychopathic aggression is another topic entirely. Serial killers usually don't act in hot blood. They can't, because if they did, they would be easily caught.

trysts
0110001101101000 wrote:
trysts wrote:
0110001101101000 wrote:
Megabyte wrote:
trysts wrote:

Hmm...Don't know about this 'gay men are not aggressive' stereotype you're fixated on? There are famous gay serial killers--Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy, Wayne Willams, etc. 

People can kill without being aggressive. These are cold-blooded killers. Aggressiveness specifically refers to being impulsive and quickly prone to anger.

You'd have to be careful with defining the terms. Aggression doesn't necessarily have anything to do with emotion or impulsiveness.  As a serial killer who kills in cold blood, you could employ aggressive strategies. Also when it comes time to kill the person, you may not be angry, but it may require physical aggression if they fight back.

I have no idea what you're talking about? Whatever you imagine about a serial killer sounds like it's from movies. Murdering people requires aggression--extreme aggression. 

Hmm? I argued it was aggressive in spite of there not being anger or impulsiveness.

As for movies, IIRC a few of Dahmer's victims he picked up at a bar for sexual stuff, took them back to his place, drugged them, then killed them while they were still drugged. That seems well calculated, low emotion and low energy to me. I also recall another serial killer I read about, who described himself as curious... he wanted to try to kill people in many different ways. One day he noticed a window was left open, so he went in, found someone sleeping, and cut their throat, and then walked away.

So I don't think I said anything incorrect. It's aggressive without being emotional or impulsive, and it I didn't get it from movies

I'm going to say that you're a victim of elubas-speak. I'm also going to say that there is no such thing as murdering people without emotion. I could be living in a world where murdering people testifies to an emotion I can't quite understand, while you're living in a world where murdering people is done through a lack of emotion? Could be? I don't know 

Babytigrrr

I only kill the people I love.

Megabyte
0110001101101000 wrote:

So I don't think I said anything incorrect. It's aggressive without being emotional or impulsive, and it I didn't get it from movies

But that's the point I'm trying to make. If it's cold and deliberate, it's not stereotypical male aggression. It's a different type of behavior, out of the curve in the average male/female person – and even then, the pattern of these people also changes from a gender to another.

Megabyte
0110001101101000 wrote:

Obviously I have no way of answering that.

But when you play an all gambit repertoire (like the last women I played and lost to) or when you sacrifice before move 25 in a calm position (like the lady I talked about in my first post) then it's choice.

BTW I played her a few years later and she changed her style to very clam and positional... this time she beat me in a drawn out endgame haha. We even talked about our first game and she told me she had really changed her approach.

We'd have to study the repertoire of this player you're talking about so we can see whether she really did have a choice, and how did her repertoire evolve during all this time.

u0110001101101000

@Trysts

Being meticulous with words and ideas is something to aspire to IMO. It may be poor at communicating sometimes though. Anyway, at least right now, I'll take the Elubas comparison as a compliment.

Although, I have been awake for too long, so it's harder for me to proof read to see how well I'm communicating.

---

Anyway, sure, most all murders are done with lots of emotion. Probably most have a lot of fear and/or anger.

Still, I can imagine killing happening with little to no emotion... at least at the time. Maybe afterwards the person would have all sorts of emotional issues. But if they're a sociopath then maybe not even that.

u0110001101101000
Megabyte wrote:
0110001101101000 wrote:

Obviously I have no way of answering that.

But when you play an all gambit repertoire (like the last women I played and lost to) or when you sacrifice before move 25 in a calm position (like the lady I talked about in my first post) then it's choice.

BTW I played her a few years later and she changed her style to very clam and positional... this time she beat me in a drawn out endgame haha. We even talked about our first game and she told me she had really changed her approach.

We'd have to study the repertoire of this player you're talking about so we can see whether she really did have a choice, and how did her repertoire evolve during all this time.

I actively steer my games to quiet positions. She actively fights this. I've played her twice. Not only is it my experience, it's her reputation, and her self description.

I appreciate you're looking for some kind of confirmation bias from me though. But at least in this case it's not there.

u0110001101101000
Don_frye1 wrote:
0110001101101000 wrote:

Being meticulous with words and ideas is something to aspire to IMO. It may be poor at communicating sometimes though. Anyway, at least right now, I'll take the Elubas comparison as a compliment.

Although, I have been awake for too long, so it's harder for me to proof read to see how well I'm communicating.

---

Anyway, sure, most all murders are done with lots of emotion. Probably most have a lot of fear and/or anger.

Still, I can imagine killing happening with little to no emotion... at least at the time. Maybe afterwards the person would have all sorts of emotional issues. But if they're a sociopath then maybe not even that.

If you continue your account will be closed as well. Future mod , don

Promising future bans isn't exactly ingratiating. You'll get fewer votes this way.

trysts
Megabyte wrote:
trysts wrote:

Hot-blooded, cold-blooded? Look, if someone is a serial-killer, you can talk until you're blue about the semantics of the word "aggression", but it's sounds ridiculous. The act of murdering someone itself typifies extreme aggression. Whether it be by poison or proxy. Actors can fake extreme aggression for a role, but in real life, if humans could only communicate with their actions, then murder is at the top of the charts for displaying extreme aggression. 

I'm not talking about the moral aspects of aggression. The discussion here is about male vs. female behavior patterns. More specifically, how do they display aggression? There's a hot-blooded, "explosive" aggression type, and there's a cold-blooded, planned aggression type. This hot-blooded aggression (violent anger outbursts, joing gangs, etc) refers to behavior that's typically male. Cold-blooded and psychopathic aggression is another topic entirely. Serial killers usually don't act in hot blood. They can't, because if they did, they would be easily caught.

Alls I know is that if you raise a girl a certain way then they'll be quite capable of displaying hot-blooded aggression if you ask for it. Don't underestimate;) 

And I think there are two leading factors why serial killers are hard to catch, and it's not because they were so amazingly calm and methodical when they murdered. It's because it's hard to catch people without witnesses, and investigators are used to crimes where the people involved know each other well or are relatives. So that doesn't diminish the violence and aggression of the murders.

u0110001101101000

Elubas-speak, hmm.

It's sort of a stream of consciousness point -> counterpoint series given by the speaker...

For example, but then again, and only if, but then again, maybe not, but in this case maybe so -- sort of structure.

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Instead of arguing the main point only, the elubas-speaker may also do this with every minor point, or supporting argument.

I happen to like this actually (ever since I was young), it's like a game, it's fun. But I can see how it's highly dependent on personal preference. I suspect for most people it's very tedious.

Megabyte
0110001101101000 wrote:
Megabyte wrote:
0110001101101000 wrote:

Obviously I have no way of answering that.

But when you play an all gambit repertoire (like the last women I played and lost to) or when you sacrifice before move 25 in a calm position (like the lady I talked about in my first post) then it's choice.

BTW I played her a few years later and she changed her style to very clam and positional... this time she beat me in a drawn out endgame haha. We even talked about our first game and she told me she had really changed her approach.

We'd have to study the repertoire of this player you're talking about so we can see whether she really did have a choice, and how did her repertoire evolve during all this time.

I actively steer my games to quiet positions. She actively fights this. I've played her twice. Not only is it my experience, it's her reputation, and her self description.

I appreciate you're looking for some kind of confirmation bias from me though. But at least in this case it's not there.

I see what you mean, but ultimately we can't learn more about that if we don't have access of the games of this player. It would be a richer discussion if we could learn a little more about how she plays.

trysts
0110001101101000 wrote:

@Trysts

Being meticulous with words and ideas is something to aspire to IMO. It may be poor at communicating sometimes though. Anyway, at least right now, I'll take the Elubas comparison as a compliment.

Although, I have been awake for too long, so it's harder for me to proof read to see how well I'm communicating.

---

Anyway, sure, most all murders are done with lots of emotion. Probably most have a lot of fear and/or anger.

Still, I can imagine killing happening with little to no emotion... at least at the time. Maybe afterwards the person would have all sorts of emotional issues. But if they're a sociopath then maybe not even that.

I think you should know my definition of elubas-speak. Elubas-speak is when you talk your way out of communicating for the greater good of yourself. In otherwords, to deny communication in order to preserve your idea of yourself:)

u0110001101101000

That's an interesting definition of elubas-speak.

I think I gained some insight about it myself too (which I posed above).

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I've had long back and forths with him before, I've enjoyed it. Just call him on any point you think is poor and explain why, and he'll respond. He's not going to defend a position out of pride, if you make a good point he'll acknowledge it... but if he disagrees for some reason he'll be sure to say that too.

It usually comes down to just understanding the other person better, and in the end you agree you both have valid / reasonable points of view... so in this case maybe so, maybe it does have some kind of preservation of self aspect, if in the end there's just an agreement to disagree sort of thing.

u0110001101101000
Megabyte wrote:
 

I see what you mean, but ultimately we can't learn more about that if we don't have access of the games of this player. It would be a richer discussion if we could learn a little more about how she plays.

I'm not invested in it, sorry.

I guess, I'll say  she plays tons of scotch gambit games as white, if that's at all interesting or helpful to you.

I (quite ignorantly because it's old) didn't know this line existed... I managed to find 14 book moves (yay) and essentially lost the game on move 15 (boo). I'm black.

u0110001101101000

Oh, and black is better... provided you can play accurately from that position for many more moves (not at all easy, so I wasn't even close to getting out yet). For move 15 black has only 1 correct move.

So sure, this is a very practical way of playing, at least for us non-GMs. Still, it is aggressive!

trysts
0110001101101000 wrote:

That's an interesting definition of elubas-speak.

I think I gained some insight about it myself too (which I posed above).

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I've had long back and forths with him before, I've enjoyed it. Just call him on any point you think is poor and explain why, and he'll respond. He's not going to defend a position out of pride, if you make a good point he'll acknowledge it... but if he disagrees for some reason he'll be sure to say that too.

It usually comes down to just understanding the other person better, and in the end you agree you both have valid / reasonable points of view... so in this case maybe so, maybe it does have some kind of preservation of self aspect, if in the end there's just an agreement to disagree sort of thing.

Well, a good example of elubas-speak is this discussion about aggression. There is hardly a need to go back and forth about the meaning of aggression when even the most extreme example of it--murder--is negated. The proposition was put forth that somehow a male's sexual preference lessens his aggressiveness. That makes no sense. By giving extreme examples of gay men quite capable of being the lowest form of human life--the serial killer--the argument ensued about a variety of ways one may look at the definition of aggression. Of course that was needless because communication should have already been made about the original proposition just being an example of stereotyping gay men as less aggressive than straight men. Why people wish to abolish communication by creating imaginary profiles of gay men, or women, speaks to me of a not so subtle prejudice;)

u0110001101101000

I agree with you there.

I think that's a good example for the stream of consciousness thing. Instead of relating anything back to the main point, the mind just starts going and words come out haha. Until yeah, what used to be the main topic is lost under a pile of stuff.

Megabyte
0110001101101000 wrote:

I agree with you there.

I think that's a good example for the stream of consciousness thing. Instead of relating anything back to the main point, the mind just starts going and words come out haha. Until yeah, what used to be the main topic is lost under a pile of stuff.

The original topic is, "can women be as good in chess"?
I would say they can. They might play differently than men on the average (more defensively, taking less risks), but in the end it evens itself out. We still don't have a woman that's regularly 2700 ELO, but then, most men here would be crushed by the top female chess masters.

u0110001101101000

Yeah, as I pointed out on the first page (under an old account) by the same logic we should say most men aren't as good as men at chess

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Anyway, like I said, the stereotype among chess players is that women do not play more defensively or take less risks. As much as you were fishing for confirmation bias in previous posts, you seem to be leaning that way yourself.

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