Carlsen, Caruana & Yifan: a ratings analysis

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Avatar of Eseles
trysts wrote:
DrCheckevertim wrote:

I also believe in the power of the individual, but it seems you would have us do away with the social sciences. I'm not sure the best option is to abandon all attempts at generalization. But if it helps you play better chess or do anything else, feel free to disregard the general observation...

No, I guess I really don't understand you, because I never thought what I was saying would imply abandoning the social sciences? Maybe I find it impossible for me to believe that this little game is more suited to men than women since I play it, enjoy it, and don't think either sex is "hardwired" to be a master at it. I think that way of looking at it is mistaken, that's all:)

ditto

although i'm male

Avatar of DrCheckevertim
trysts wrote:
DrCheckevertim wrote:

I also believe in the power of the individual, but it seems you would have us do away with the social sciences. I'm not sure the best option is to abandon all attempts at generalization. But if it helps you play better chess or do anything else, feel free to disregard the general observation...

No, I guess I really don't understand you, because I never thought what I was saying would imply abandoning the social sciences? Maybe I find it impossible for me to believe that this little game is more suited to men than women since I play it, enjoy it, and don't think either sex is "hardwired" to be a master at it. I think that way of looking at it is mistaken, that's all:)

Also remember this: a generalization is not only about you personally. And just because you, as a female, feel perfectly fine with the chess board, doesn't mean there is no generalization to be made. Feel however you want about chess.

Avatar of SmyslovFan

You should strive to believe six impossible things before breakfast.

Avatar of trysts
SmyslovFan wrote:

You should strive to believe six impossible things before breakfast.

Laughing

Avatar of Eseles
SmyslovFan wrote:

You should strive to believe six impossible things before breakfast.

serious question: where have i heard this before?

oh, wait, is it from Alice in Wonderland? did that head-chopping Queen say that?

Avatar of DrCheckevertim

Let me know when you reach the top Smile

Avatar of Azukikuru
trysts wrote:

No, I guess I really don't understand you, because I never thought what I was saying would imply abandoning the social sciences? Maybe I find it impossible for me to believe that this little game is more suited to men than women since I play it, enjoy it, and don't think either sex is "hardwired" to be a master at it. I think that way of looking at it is mistaken, that's all:)

Well, you have to realize that whatever difference we're talking about is very small. If the 100-point inter-gender gap persists, it means that the average male will beat the average female two times out of three. If you're playing casually and not taking count, you might not even notice a difference there. Also, if you're playing casually, the ratings distributions at your level are so intermixed that you won't see much of a ratings difference anyway - you might be playing at a club where there's a strong female player and several comparatively weaker male players.

You have to keep in mind that the only place where this statistically perceived difference actually comes into effect is the very top level of chess, where the likes of Carlsen, Caruana, and Nakamura dominate. For people like you and me, who play chess casually, gender makes no discernible difference whatsoever.

Avatar of Eseles

I just want to make a point on the nature vs nurture debate

the "nurture" side of things is much more "flexible" and succeptible to change than the "nature" side

i mean, when you talk about genes, or brain structure, or gender, those are things that don't easily change - on the other hand, the way someone is educated or trained, or the social structures, are things which can change much easier

so usually the "nature" side is supported by people who are satisfied with the current situation and don't want things to change, and want to convince other people to accept things as they are

Avatar of DrCheckevertim

That can be true but it's not necessarily. It's not true in my case. I also don't draw a false dichotomy by deciding on nature "or" nurture. It's pretty widely acknowledged now that both play a role in who we are.

Avatar of Eseles
DrCheckevertim wrote:

That can be true but it's not necessarily. It's not true in my case. I also don't draw a false dichotomy by deciding on nature "or" nurture. It's pretty widely acknowledged now that both play a role in who we are.

oh, surely, both play a role, but people argue all the time about what is the % of nature and what is the % of nurture in the final result, and those percentages vary very much from theory to theory (from person to person).

i just wanted to make a general observation (point)

i have been hearing a lot of theories about "genes of violence", "genes of whatever sexual behaviour", "genes of drug abuse", "genes for this", "genes for that", "your gender is this and that's how your life is supposed to be", and i'm appaled by such "scientific" discoveries.... ummmm, maybe i'm not expressing my thoughts very clearly, but i think you get the gist of what i mean

Avatar of Colin20G
Azukikuru wrote:

You have to keep in mind that the only place where this statistically perceived difference actually comes into effect is the very top level of chess, where the likes of Carlsen, Caruana, and Nakamura dominate. For people like you and me, who play chess casually, gender makes no discernible difference whatsoever.

There is an issue with this, namely: since the people who've been studying brain differences probably didn't put high rated chess players in their samples (honestly we need to check that but 2100+ players are so rare it is very unlikely), how do you relate that extra performance with  biology based gender studies?

In the nurture vs nature debate  we too often forget that the education a kid receives shape his brain, so you cannot conclude easily state between brain parts sizes and performance in specific which ones are the cause of the other.

 It would be nice to provide studies about how the brain of high rated players work: imaging and stuff.

Avatar of Colin20G

related thing:

http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fnhum.2013.00825/full

Avatar of SmyslovFan

That article is interesting, but I don't see how it's related.

The experiment involved 11 male "experts" (IMs and GMs) and compared them to 11 male non-experts (people who had never played in a tournament or had relatively low USCF ratings) and found that experts tend to "chunk" data better than non-experts. 

Avatar of SilentKnighte5

Here is the data for Judit Polgar.  She didn't appear on the FIDE top 100 at ages 15 & 16.  Maybe inactivity?

2555 13
2550 14
2595 17
2630 18
2630 19
2675 20
2645 21
2670 22
2677 23
2658 24
2676 25
2677 26
2700 27
2728 28
Avatar of SilentKnighte5

Kramnik

2590 17
2685 18
2710 19
2715 20
2775 21
2740 22
2790 23
2751 24
2758 25
2772 26
2809 27
2809 28
2777 29
Avatar of SilentKnighte5

Morozevich

2590 17
2605 18
2625 19
2595 20
2590 21
2723 22
2748 23
2745 24
2742 25
2678 26
2732 27
Avatar of SilentKnighte5

I chose the last 2 because they're approximately the same age as Polgar so you can do an comparison for her era.

Avatar of SilentKnighte5

Was able to get some older data:

Polgar

Rating Age
2355 11
2320 12
2555 13
2550 14
2540 15
2550 16
2595 17
2630 18
2630 19
2675 20
2645 21
2670 22
2677 23
2658 24
2676 25
2677 26
2700 27
2728 28
Avatar of SilentKnighte5

Kramnik

Rating Age
2450 15
2480 16
2590 17
2685 18
2710 19
2715 20
2775 21
2740 22
2790 23
2751 24
2758 25
2772 26
2809 27
2809 28
2777 29
Avatar of SilentKnighte5

Morozevich

Rating Age
2440 16
2590 17
2605 18
2625 19
2595 20
2590 21
2723 22
2748 23
2745 24
2742 25
2678 26
2732 27
2741 28