LionVanHalen wrote:
i think the name Alexi Shirov deserve an honorable mention.., he legimate defeat kramnik... but denied a title shot?
Yeap! I think we're all in agreement with that.
Carlsen's opinion on Vladimir Kramnik
Sort:
Feb 14, 2019
0
#63
Bronstein, Ivanchuck, Korchnoi, Shirov...
Better than many champion?
Botvinnik beat all the best players of the world in an incredibly long tournament, with a crushing advantage of 3 points. I can't find a more legitimate champion in history. Also Alekhine crushed the considered best player ever existed by a convincing +3 margin. So stop saying nonsense.
congrandolor wrote:
Botvinnik beat all the best players of the world in an incredibly long tournament, with a crushing advantage of 3 points. I can't find a more legitimate champion in history. Also Alekhine crushed the considered best player ever existed by a convincing +3 margin. So stop saying nonsense.
Yeah - the tournament where Paul Keres was coerced to lose to Botvinnik.
Alekhine hardly crushed Capablanca, and then he wouldn't give him a rematch; instead playing the inferior Bogo however you spell his name.
Nonsense? Maybe you need a dictionary.
Botvinnik NEVER won a title defense match; only rematches. Bronstein was coerced. Botvinnik had a negative score against Smyslov, and Tal just had an organ removed prior to the rematch with Botvinnik.
You should go fact checking.
Nonsense is calling Botvinnik a legitimate champion. Botvinnik was most certainly a tainted and illegitimate world chess champion.
But Alekhine got once severely scolded by Olga Capablanca! That's enough to obtain heaven's forgiveness.
Botvinnik also crushed both Reshevsky and Euwe 3-1 in that tournament, were there also coerced by the Russian government? Or maybe the good Sammy, legend of American chess, was a secret soviet agent...
Stop embarrasing yourself, please.
Justs99171 wrote:
varelse1 wrote:
Justs99171 wrote:
varelse1 wrote:
I first heard of Kramnik back in '93, when I read a short article about him.
I went to my chess team, and said "This is the guy Kasparov needs to watch out for!"
All my teammates just shook their heads, and blew me off.
Kasparov - Kramnik 2000 wasn't a legitimate title match or a legitimate result.
Of course, by traditional tie breakers, Kramnik should have won the right to challenge Anand; instead of Carlsen. Karma, huh? Kramnik never did qualify for a world chess championship match. This and the refusal to give Kasparov a rematch are what arguably make Kramnik the most tainted world chess champion in chess history. Carlsen has no class, but in a way this cheap shot he took at Kramnik was entirely warranted.
I have no admiration for either player, as a person or competitor. However, at least Kramnik is admirable as a theoretician; and that, Carlsen is not.
Kramnik defeated the legitimate world champion (though he did not qualify to challenge him.)
And cemented that legitimacy, by winning the reunification match vs Topolov.
And though he has since lost the title, he has remained a Super-GM by anybody's standards. And a serious threat to following champions.
There have been very few legitimate and untainted world chess champions.
On a list of illegitimate and tainted world chess champions, you can put Kramnik at #1.
The only real problem with such a list is that you have to begin with Lasker and Alekhine, which actually were the best two players in the world at the time they were world chess champions. The two of them are just tainted. This isn't as bas as just outright illegitimate.
Botvinnik was just outright illegitimate, as well as super tainted after the fact.
Petrosian? .. Tainted ...
Karpov? … History wasn't kind to Karpov.
And we give credit to this long list for defeating an incumbent, but illegitimate and/or tainted world chess champion:
Capablanca
Euwe
Smyslov
Tal
Kasparov
… of course it's fun to sit here and analyze all these crimes, but consider this! It has taken us x number of years of chess history to produce a world chess champion that was a legitimate challenger and defeated a legitimate and untainted world chess champion to become world chess champion.
This is Magnus Carlsen. Anand was a legitimate and untainted WCC; and even then, his previous match against Gelfand wasn't a legitimate match because Gelfand wasn't a legitimate challenger.
… So Lasker defeated Steinitz, but wasn't a legitimate challenger because there was no cycle in those days. Tarrasch probably would have been the best challenger, then Lasker just came out of no where to go on cherry picking and ducking the best player for 20+ years.
Honestly, Steinitz was no more legitimate than Karpov. It was neither his nor Karpov's fault that Morphy and Fischer (respectively) wouldn't play.
So Alekhine defeats Capablanca and won't give him a rematch, despite the fact that the two are clearly the best two players in the world. I suppose Kramnik was Kasparov's punishment for admiring Alekhine ...
Alekhine defeats that Bogo guy twice - an illegitimate challenger - before losing to Euwe … an illegitimate challenger.
So far we have quite a list of l3!@tches.
1.Kramnik
2.Alekhine
3.Lasker
Now there is Botvinnik. Keres, a legitimate challenger, was coerced to lose to Botvinnik in a world chess championship tournament. Then Bronstein was coerced … then Smyslov finished x number of world chess championship matches as a former world chess champion and a plus score against Botvinnik!
Now that I think of it, why not just bump Kramnik down to number 2?
We gotta throw Petrosian on this list simply because he won a world chess championship candidates tournament that involved heavy Soviet collusion, in which he was very much involved.
And then, of course, everyone wants to put Karpov on such a list because Fischer ducked him - and not the other way around.
1.Botvinnik
2.Kramnik
3.Alekhine
4.Lasker
5.Petrosian
6.Euwe (Sorry, but he wasn't a legitimate challenger and defeated a drunkard. This is a shame, because this man was by far the most respectable person of all world chess champions.)
7.Karpov (Because … you know, the USSR was evil and Fischer was the hero.)
Nicely said, Justin
Feb 14, 2019
0
#70
Carlsen's "opinion" on Vladimir Kramnik
What is an "opinion"?
Definition of opinion
1a : a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter.
You don't have to like it. You don't have to agree with it. And as much as having an "opinion" now gets so many offended. Its still just that...an opinion.
Feb 14, 2019
0
#73
A rant of epic proportion... near any WC is apparently illegitimate, unworthy a cheat or a coward... or under direct orders from Kremlin?
Apart from Anand, but he didn't have a worthy opponent... and Euwe, but he wasn't good enough, or something...
Feb 14, 2019
0
#74
LionVanHalen wrote:
A rant of epic proportion... near any WC is apparently illegitimate, unworthy a cheat or a coward... or under direct orders from Kremlin?
Apart from Anand, but he didn't have a worthy opponent... and Euwe, but he wasn't good enough, or something...
Everyone wants to defend their favorite WC.
Mine is Capablanca. "Oh my God!!! He was sooooo boring...."
I also like Botvinnik. "Oh my God!!!! He never won a match for the title, only rematches.
And Petrosian is another favorite. "Oh my God!!! He was the most boring of them all...."
Who is your favorite WC? "Alekhine!! He was very tactical."
What is your favorite Alekhine game? "Oh my God!!! I cant pick just one. Why are you such a hater!!!!"
Kramnik beat Kasparov who beat Shirov who beat Kramnik.
Anand beat Kramnik who beat Kasparov who beat Anand.
I like how chess is so unpredictable. More than pure strength of a player, you also have to consider their styles which I find so interesting. And not just for chess but in other sports too.
Feb 14, 2019
0
#76
And what about game 23...
How can we ever know?
Poor and heroic Bronstein, up against the evil scheming Botvinnik... hmm?
And game 24? a tame draw, handshake and smiles?
Well is obvious yes... under direct order from Kremlin, Kruschev or Brezhnev or... somebody... poor Bronstein took a dive, and the dastardly Botvinnik is champion.
Probably KGB involved, maybe GRU as well...
And the swarthy Petrosian, from little Armenia... Kremlin want proper WC, russian yes? And the brooding Smyslov, pull the strings, obvious coercion yes?
And Kasparov... Azerbaijan yes? Kremlin want Karpov, proper russian champ... hmm?
Match abandon, just as Kasparov get momentum... Kremlin orders, KGB yes?
And poor angelic RJ Fischer, so humble, so modest?
Obviously a joint plot, KGB, GRU, Kremlin... make him unstable, irrational... hero Karpov is champion?
And wasn't Shirov from Latvia... hmm?
And what about Leko, game 16? Drawcula not get draw?
And remember toiletgate? Where was that match held...
And... can i play with Madness?
Feb 21, 2019
0
#77
IMBacon wrote:
Carlsen's "opinion" on Vladimir Kramnik
What is an "opinion"?
Definition of opinion 1a : a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter.
You don't have to like it. You don't have to agree with it. And as much as having an "opinion" now gets so many offended. Its still just that...an opinion.
And we don't have to respect Carlsen, for voicing or even thinking such an opinion either.
Feb 21, 2019
0
#78
varelse1 wrote:
IMBacon wrote:
Carlsen's "opinion" on Vladimir Kramnik
What is an "opinion"?
Definition of opinion 1a : a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter.
You don't have to like it. You don't have to agree with it. And as much as having an "opinion" now gets so many offended. Its still just that...an opinion.
And we don't have to respect Carlsen, for voicing or even thinking such an opinion either.
I dont think not agreeing with someones opinion should mean you dont respect them. Of course that would depend on the opinion.
i think the name Alexi Shirov deserve an honorable mention.., he legimate defeat kramnik... but denied a title shot?