Checking if Elo system is oppressive [With proofs]

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Avatar of basketstorm
xtreme2020 wrote:
#15 well, the stockfish elo setting is inaccurate. There is your problem.

Why do you think so? It's actually precise to the very last digit and easy to prove by running stockfish 1400 against stockfish 1701 multiple times - 15% winrate in the long run. Easy to calibrate. And it doesn't matter, that's just a way to describe that each player has certain strength even if player is unrated.

Avatar of chesssblackbelt
xtreme2020 wrote:
#18 but would you say it’s enough to significantly decrease your elo after playing for a while?

nah you maybe get +10 elo for beating them 50 times and you also get +10 elo for beating someone your own rating so it works out the same

Avatar of M0lten_Knight
#20 a 50% win rate is needed for a stave rating, actually slightly less counting in draws. Two of your players had a “hidden elo” of around 1250, but a real elo of 500 and 1000. That means ChatGPT calculated something wrong, as assuming your “hidden elo” is a better calculation of the real strength, the 500 player would have had to lose 50% of his games against players that a player of similar “hidden elo” would almost never lose to. This is impossible. Therefore, the hidden elo is less accurate than the real elo.
Avatar of M0lten_Knight
*stable rating
Avatar of chesssblackbelt

on chess.com tho youre guaranteed to lose rating if you played someone 700 elo lower rated enough times

because your rating doesnt increase at all when you win

Avatar of chesssblackbelt

so chess.com actually has an unfair rating system

Avatar of M0lten_Knight
Yeah I think cause it’s estimated that you’ll win literally 100% of the games at that point
Avatar of M0lten_Knight
But technically yes it’s unfair if you play players that much lower rated, which isn’t what is going on here.
Avatar of chesssblackbelt

but if you played them maybe 1000 times youre guaranteed to lose 100 elo

Avatar of basketstorm
xtreme2020 wrote:
#20 a 50% win rate is needed for a stave rating, actually slightly less counting in draws. Two of your players had a “hidden elo” of around 1250, but a real elo of 500 and 1000. That means ChatGPT calculated something wrong, as assuming your “hidden elo” is a better calculation of the real strength, the 500 player would have had to lose 50% of his games against players that a player of similar “hidden elo” would almost never lose to. This is impossible. Therefore, the hidden elo is less accurate than the real elo.

No, simulation wasn't that stupid, I've checked the code. ChatGPT didn't calculate anything, it made a program to run the simulation. Outcome was simulated for each game using probabilities according to hidden strength of players. You trust in rated Elo too much. Just think about the initial situation: all players are rated the same when they sign up. How accurate is that real Elo then? How can you grow or decrease Elo of a player if he competes against players with innacurate Elo? That's the problem.

Avatar of M0lten_Knight
#23 also, what you don’t realize is that if you have a stable elo, that is your skill level. There is never a hidden skill level, unless you’ve recently improved or gotten worse and haven’t reached your actual elo yet. Your skill level can always be quantified with an elo number, and throughout enough games you will get to that elo number, all the time.
Avatar of basketstorm
xtreme2020 wrote:
#23 also, what you don’t realize is that if you have a stable elo, that is your skill level. There is never a hidden skill level, unless you’ve recently improved or gotten worse and haven’t reached your actual elo yet. Your skill level can always be quantified with an elo number, and throughout enough games you will get to that elo number, all the time.

If only all Elos were correct in the first place. But if you are rated 600 and competing against freshly-joined 200 who is stronger than you actually and you lose to him and you lose a good amount of Elo because of that because the system treats his 200 as "real", that's not even close to a quantification of someone's skill. That's just chaos.

Avatar of chesssblackbelt

yeah i think elo is really accurate

like you cant get +100 elo by luck

Avatar of M0lten_Knight
#32 if you’ve just signed up or haven’t played in a while, your rating is inaccurate. Otherwise, you beat 50% of the people at your skill level. That’s the definition of being at that skill level, I assume you agree this. Therefore, after playing enough games on chess.com, you’ll get to the point where you have a 50% win rate and aren’t going up or down on average, unless you’re improving.
Avatar of chesssblackbelt

you dont really play many people with low rd to make a difference

Avatar of M0lten_Knight
#34 you gain and lose less by playing against new players, and most players you play aren’t like that, so it’ll balance out eventually despite a few mistaken losses (and probably some mistaken wins)
Avatar of basketstorm

Beating 50% of the people at your skill is ideal situation on paper but it doesn't happen, you rarely encounter such people. To encounter such people you need accurate Elos for: 1) you 2) opponent. But because all fresh accounts get exactly the same artificially low Elo (200 or 400 in Rapid) there's no way to do accurate pairing, pairing by actual skill. Situation will not improve even after 1000 games because real skill of players fluctuates that much in low-Elo zone. You need to be a really strong player to break through.

Also because there's a limit (100 Elo), and someone grows after beating you while you hit the limit, that's pure inflation. Sum of all ratings in the system becoming greater.

Avatar of chesssblackbelt

i checked my win % against players my own rating over thousands of games once

it was 47% wins, 6% draws, 47% losses

elo is crazy accurate

Avatar of basketstorm
xtreme2020 wrote:
#34 you gain and lose less by playing against new players, and most players you play aren’t like that, so it’ll balance out eventually despite a few mistaken losses (and probably some mistaken wins)

That's not exactly how Glicko works. It's not about being new or old player, the system tracks your inactivity and increases deviation. But while inactive player is penalized for the loss more, you don't gain less than from beating an active player.

Avatar of basketstorm
chesssblackbelt wrote:

i checked my win % against players my own rating over thousands of games once

it was 47% wins, 6% draws, 47% losses

elo is crazy accurate

Elo on average is accurate especially for skilled players. But not in low-Elo zone where actual skill is random and does not correspond to the rating well.