Chess and Religion

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batgirl

This is a serious question. 

Since I know this site is filled with many highly intelligent and/or learned people, I'm hoping someone may have insight into this.

During the Middle Ages European chess was completely dominated by the Roman Catholic clergy.  Even the Muslims who introduced chess in Spain didn't compare. 

Martin Luther lived around the time modern chess began and was excommunicated around the time Greco was making his way through Europe.  I just read in the "Life and Letters of Martin Luther" that he was, in fact, a chess player. 

My question is : did the Protestant Reformation and the resulting decreased influence of the Roman Catholic Church in Europe have any direct impact on chess?

Mister-Horse

Seems like an anti-christian post.

shell_knight
DefeatIsYourDestiny1 wrote:

I don't know what the Protestant Reformation was, but I'm pretty sure my fundamentalist Baptist church doesn't like it, and it's probably anti Jesus.

Don't bother answering if you didn't read the question.

Mister-Horse
kaynight wrote:

The religious zealots were to busy buggering little boys to worry about chess.. Just saying.

Then you can relate?

Mister-Horse
kaynight wrote:

Relate to what?

Maybe you are not a religious zealot, but maybe you buggered something that kept you busy from chess?

Mister-Horse

Your first mention of buggering dosen't sound human to me.

zembrianator
batgirl wrote:

During the Middle Ages European chess was completely dominated by the Roman Catholic clergy. 



You don't need to elaborate for my sake, but would you be able to give any names/reference points/key words that i could google to learn more about this? I don't know anything about about chess history, and it sounds like something interesting to read up on

dashkee94

I'm not sure I understand what it is you are asking.  Impact how; on popularity?  Accessibility?  New rules?  New moves?  While that period of time isn't my stregnth, I'm sure that the radical notions inspired by the Reformation had a large (if not direct) impact on multiple facets of medieval society.  So, my best answer is: yes and no.  How's that for a cop-out, BG?

Tactical_Knightmare
batgirl wrote:

This is a serious question. 

Since I know this site is filled with many highly intelligent and/or learned people, I'm hoping someone may have insight into this.

During the Middle Ages European chess was completely dominated by the Roman Catholic clergy.  Even the Muslims who introduced chess in Spain didn't compare. 

Martin Luther lived around the time modern chess began and was excommunicated around the time Greco was making his way through Europe.  I just read in the "Life and Letters of Martin Luther" that he was, in fact, a chess player. 

My question is : did the Protestant Reformation and the resulting decreased influence of the Roman Catholic Church in Europe have any direct impact on chess?

To be blunt:

Chess was dominated by those that were educated. Most of those being in the clergy and also royalty. Those were the only two classes that really played. Of course there were exepction with all things, but the norm was..Royalty (educated) & Clergy (educated) were the only ones that played.

As more and more people began to read and become educated, on higher levels and lower levels then the number of chess players increased.

The Clergy might have had aslight upperhand over royalty because...they as a norm had a education.

 

Education and the educated.

Education and the educated.

Hope this helps. Your answer was hidden in your OP.

Tactical_Knightmare

So to continue.

Why the educated? To become educated a person needs the time to become educated. Free time, time away from chores from sun up to sun down, from menial tasks all day long, from struggling just to eat at the end of the day.

The educated of course were able to become educated because they were released from many of these duties, of the daily drudge, to learn to read, to write, to ponder on the world around them and also ponder over chess.

Why did they have that time?

Riches, yes, chess was a rich and/or wealthy persons game in those days. Based on the standards of those days, not the standards of these days.

So now everyone who has read this, please take a envelope put 5 dollars in it and mail it to me so I can take a break from work and continue in my drive to be the worlds worst non grand master chess playing patzer in the world. Thank you.

DrSpudnik

Idle time may be the Devil's playpen, but it also gives you time to hone your skills. Grad school was like a vacation with books that allowed me to get in a lot of practice.

That being said, the strongest places for chess at the onset of its modern form were Italy and Spain. Polerio, Damiano, Lopez... are the names on the old chess manuscripts. But even Vikings had a thing for the game, as evidenced by the Isle of Lewis set from the 12th Century.

Most religious sorts back then frowned upon idling away your time with silly pursuits. Chess is kind of a religion of its own.

RonaldJosephCote

               Somewhere in the beginning, or in the middle of the Reformation, the printing press came into play. The 1st books printed were not Silman's thow.

AyoDub
batgirl wrote:

This is a serious question. 

Since I know this site is filled with many highly intelligent and/or learned people


Good one.

ParadoxOfNone

I don't sense any direct connection, as I search my spirit but, what happens to the energy, once you no longer see the ripples on the surface of the water, long after the rock has sank to the bottom ? I suspect if you could answer that "specifically", you'd also have a more clear understanding of your own question.

I also think it is fair to say that there are plenty of Christian and non-Christian chess players alike. While I can see how the church could influence people to play it or not, I tend to think it was inevitable people were going to play. As swept up into chess as all of us are here, I think my opinion on the matter, has quite a bit of tangible evidence to back it up.

epoqueepique

'''My question is : did the Protestant Reformation and the resulting decreased influence of the Roman Catholic Church in Europe have any direct impact on chess?''''

It took quite a while for the Catholic faith to decrease, if you consider its decrease a consequence of the Reformation...it didn't much decrease in France, it did in England and Germany and Switzerland, it didn't in Italy and Spain... How is impact on chess supposed to be measured in time ?

The educated were not much touched by the switch in religions, they just migrated to where their faith was allowed to express itself. In those days, the 1520s to 1580s, they migrated within Europe.

I don't see what you mean about an impact on chess...

Or are you referring to the vaguer political/sociological/philosophical impact the Protestant faith is said to have had on the world, due to belief in Grace ?

YeOldeWildman
batgirl wrote:

My question is : did the Protestant Reformation and the resulting decreased influence of the Roman Catholic Church in Europe have any direct impact on chess?

I'm hardly a historian, but I do read a lot.  Honestly, I doubt the Reformation had much effect on chess one way or the other.  The game in its current form had barely come into existence (ca. 1475-1500) by the time Luther nailed his 95 Theses to the catherderal door.  After that for the next 130 years Catholics and Protestants were quite busy killing each other all over most of western Europe.  Also, the Renaissance was greatly changing just about every aspect of European culture during the 14th-17th centuries, including the internal beliefs as well as the external forms of both Protestantism and Catholcism. 

If anything, the Renaissance probably had more to do with the flowering of any art at the time, chess included.

batgirl

The royalty up until the Protestant Reformation were Roman Catholic, the benefactors who really influenced chess during that time were also either clergy or connected to the church. The chess players, not all of whom were wealthy, were clergy or Roman Catholic.

The connection between education and chess is true. Did this connection translate from the Catholic church to the Protestant churches? 

During the Renaissance (which arose from the ashes on the great plague that decimated populations and elevated the role of skilled labor from the resulting shortage) power trickled down to the skilled artisans, craftsmen and trade unions and I always felt that was one of the prime forces in spreading chess from the elite to the masses.

Not particularly familiar with the history of Christian religions, I'm really not completely clear what I'm looking for.  I am quite aware of the  connection of Shatranj, Medieval Chess and Early Modern Chess with religion and that such a connection helped to  both spread, develop (and perhaps at times even stagnate) and improve the game.  At some point religion became less important in the growth of chess. 

The thought occurred to me that it could have been the Protestant Reformation that ultimately hastened that chess move from dependence on or connection with religion to a purely secular game. 

So I thought I'd fish for ideas.

Outside of the intial responses, I've received some tasty food for thought.

NomadicKnight

What happened to Rule #3 on the forums? "#3 - No religious or political debate or commentary in these forums. Religion and politics are important and deeply personal, but Chess.com is a friendly community where we come together around a common love for chess and debating these two topics tend to pull people apart. If you would like to discuss religion or politics, you may want to join this group => Open Discussion Group."  

If you click the link, you will see this description: 

Open Discussion

  • Uncensored Forums International 
  • Formed: Jan 9, 2008
  • This is the group for those who which to discuss controversial topics such as politics and religion (which are not permitted in the main Chess.com Forums).
batgirl

NomadicKnight, this isn't a religious discussion, it's a historical one. The logical extension of your evocation of policy would make the mere mention that Ruy Lopez was a Roman Catholic priest verboten.

trysts

This is interesting, batgirl! Luther passed on the bible to the individual, which was novel because the Catholic church was in control of the bible. Passing it on so that the individual may have a "personal relationship" with their god also empowers the individual. By 1600, Descartes is ushering in the importance of the individual in higher education--subjectivity. There very well could be an affinity between the popularity of chess with the rise, or change of perspective, of the individual. As the individual gained importance in recorded human thought, the State and Church represented by the Royals, diminish in importance.