Chess vs IQ

Sort:
Avatar of BlackLawliet
GChess wrote:

I was 162 Dead on! However I really don't believe it affects any part of my life. (Besides being a nerd)  

-GC

Thanks!

 

Avatar of AxiomaticUncertainty
BlackLawliet wrote:
AxiomaticUncertainty wrote:
BlackLawliet wrote:
AxiomaticUncertainty wrote:
BlackLawliet wrote:
AxiomaticUncertainty wrote:
BlackLawliet wrote:
goldenbeer wrote:
So you rely on a random site that puts random name with random numbers next to each others and calls them genius? Really? Spiegel didn’t design IQ test itself. Used well known scientific team to design the test, and methodology of designing such tests is very well known and it is quite reliable. You can stick with your childhood dreams that Kasparov is a super smart guy. The reality is that, he isn’t that smart.

You just side-stepped everything I said. I didn't say the test was unreliable. I said it used a different IQ scale and didn't actually use questions on the traditional IQ test. Also many websites say his IQ was around 190. Did you even take the time to look into my argument, or did you immediately start typing about how my claims had no evidence to back them up?

190 is certainly not accurate, though, and those websites are in the business of "pop science" as opposed to hard, evidenciary journalism and analysis. The reality is that chess relies on working memory and pattern recognition but also on visualization, processing speed, attention to detail, general attention span, and a plethora of other factors. Assuming that the figure of 190 is accurate, Kasparov is theoretically at a level only matched by roughly 7 people on the planet. Do you honestly believe that? If you do, then there's not even a real point in trying to argue with "everything [you] just said."

First of all, you do realize that IQ tests are mainly about the attributes you said chess skills rely on. Have you ever taken an IQ test?

Second of all, why is it so far-fetched to you that Kasparov is one of the smartest people on the planet? Is that really so hard to believe?

First, I have, and I have a decent working understanding of how they work. At the same time, while you do claim that many of those elements are measured by those tests, your FSIQ is still a holistic measure and therefore may not be weighted to properly reflect the elements which are dominant in chess.

Second, it's nearly impossible to believe that Kasparov is one of the smartest people on earth, and you're truly insular if you can't see why that isn't logical. While he may be intelligent, it seems highly unlikely that one can make the claim that based on solely chess ability when chess is quite obviously not a good measure of fluid reasoning. Realistically, you could even go so far as to say that it's mostly a test of working memory, pattern recognition, and recall of memorized positions.

For example: https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/f2q8ll/garry_kasparov_takes_a_real_iq_test_der_spiegel/

Again, I'd stray from taken anything relatively unsubstantiated; however, you can see that the OP on this thread links to a pastebin supposedly from an article in Der Spiegel which cites his iq as being 135 after a battery of real scientifically rigorous tests. Would you argue that iq, the subject of this conversation, is now not a good indicator? If you'd hold to the original constraints, I can hardly see how this is at all indicative of the caliber of intelligence asserted.

You stated that the comparison between chess and IQ is a faulty one with the reasoning that chess was about memory and pattern recognition, but this makes it clear to me that you have never taken an IQ test. The vast majority of questions on IQ tests are based around pattern recognition. Also many of the questions are also based around memory. (On online IQ tests less questions are about memory, but if you are actually tested by a psychiatrist, there are many question testing memory). So really you are arguing my point when you say those things. 

I didn't say that that's not the case. As I mentioned, iq tests (WISC-V being the one which I took and the one about which I know the most) typically consist of a serious of subtests with different weights. For the aforementioned test, each subtest is weighted according to its correlation with g, and the subscores for processing speed and working memory are given less weight than the fluid reasoning index and visual-spatial index. The point is not that iq tests don't test those things; rather, it's that many sections give them little weight and are given more overall weight than the sections which adequately examine them.

Gotta love being told that I've never taken a test when I've had to take them twice for psych evals

 

Also, you ignored my second point...

If you've taken them then you should know about the huge pattern recognition aspect of them. As for your second point, it fits in quite nicely with my first one. Since I have stated that since chess is basically pattern recognition, and so is an IQ test, I clearly believe that high IQ equals high chess ability. Using this bit of information, it's not hard to deduce that I think that if Kasparov was one of the best chess players in the world, he could also be one of the smartest people in the world. I didn't say it was necessarily true, I just said it wasn't hard to believe. As for why I "ignored" your second point was because I thought that all of this was basic logic, and that you could put two and two together. 

You have to be trolling.

1) calling an iq test a measure of pattern recognition is incredibly reductive since chess ability is likely best correlated not with pattern recognition but with working memory and processing speed, both of which are given little weight on most iq tests. Consequently, the overall correlation would be there but would likely be minimal. In fact, if you bothered to check the pastebin, the notes by the journalists corroborate this idea in that they claim that Kasparov tested very well in certain areas and only at an average level in others.

2) Clearly, if your claims were correct, then finding that Kasparov's intelligence isn't exceptional (though definitely quite high) should indicate (given chess ability ~ iq) that his chess ability is also similarly unexceptional. Obviously, this is false, so don't try to belittle me by claiming that it's "basic logic."

3) You asked me if I'd taken an iq test, and I told you that I had. If you're going to just ignore someone's answer to a question, don't ask the question.

Avatar of blueemu
BlackLawliet wrote:

I too was able to join Mensa, but it seemed very pretentious.

Yeah, I let my membership lapse after a year.

Avatar of JijoAttumalilJose

People with high IQ won't play chess because they are busy with other works and jobs. It means chess players won't have any IQ at all. grin.pngtongue.pngwink.png

Avatar of binomine
Optimissed wrote:

What's it like being a Mensa member? My wife passed the test, scoring about IQ = 157, but she never kept up her membership and never attended a meeting.

I had a friend in high school who loved Mensa. He thought he would be able to network with people at the meetings, but they were rather, ehh.  He loved the discount program though and thought it was worth it for that alone. 

Avatar of KnightChecked

The thing about chess is, you can be taught how to handle specific positions, and how to play them at a high level.

You don't need to be brilliant to do this. You just need to be shown, and to have the underlying concepts explained to you, in simple terms. Then, playing strong chess is just a matter of remembering what you've learned, and building upon the concepts that you've been taught.

(Obviously there's much more to chess than that. But to keep things simple, that's what chess ability is: the product of learning).

Sure, a person with a high IQ might be able to "figure out" chess, at a much quicker pace (and in a more intuitive manner) than a person with a low IQ. But having such a talent isn't really required.

And such an ability becomes difficult to identify, once both types of players reach a high level of play.

Avatar of RichardMCraven
binomine wrote:

I don't think you can correlate the two, but if you want some data...

My son's IQ is 137 measured and his rating is 167. 

I have no doubt he is a genius and the things he puts together are insane, but if the computer wasn't correcting his illegal moves, he probably wouldn't be able to play at all. 

137 puts your son in the top 1%, which is very intelligent but not genius-level. My iq was measured at 140 at school 45 years ago, and I was regarded as gifted rather than an outstanding student - generally near the top of my class but rarely at the pinnacle. I did a Philosophy PhD a few years ago in my early middle age, which I'm very proud of, but it wasn't easy. There were people in my cohort who were very obviously much cleverer than me.

Avatar of Optimissed
RichardMCraven wrote:
binomine wrote:

I don't think you can correlate the two, but if you want some data...

My son's IQ is 137 measured and his rating is 167. 

I have no doubt he is a genius and the things he puts together are insane, but if the computer wasn't correcting his illegal moves, he probably wouldn't be able to play at all. 

137 puts your son in the top 1%, which is very intelligent but not genius-level. My iq was measured at 140 at school 45 years ago, and I was regarded as gifted rather than an outstanding student - generally near the top of my class but rarely at the pinnacle. I did a Philosophy PhD a few years ago in my early middle age, which I'm very proud of, but it wasn't easy. There were people in my cohort who were very obviously much cleverer than me.

Well done for two things at least. Firstly, being honest about the meaning of IQ. Many people are starting to think that 140+ is genius level and it should be obvious that is nonsense. Secondly, well done on your philosophy PhD. I got a B.A. in philosophy. To some extent, the dissertation I wrote was more masters level, without the more rigorous referencing and structure which that would require, and I continued long after with my ideas regarding epistemology. I hope you will tell me .... what was your specialisation in philosophy?

Avatar of JijoAttumalilJose
Optimissed wrote:
RichardMCraven wrote:
binomine wrote:

I don't think you can correlate the two, but if you want some data...

My son's IQ is 137 measured and his rating is 167. 

I have no doubt he is a genius and the things he puts together are insane, but if the computer wasn't correcting his illegal moves, he probably wouldn't be able to play at all. 

137 puts your son in the top 1%, which is very intelligent but not genius-level. My iq was measured at 140 at school 45 years ago, and I was regarded as gifted rather than an outstanding student - generally near the top of my class but rarely at the pinnacle. I did a Philosophy PhD a few years ago in my early middle age, which I'm very proud of, but it wasn't easy. There were people in my cohort who were very obviously much cleverer than me.

Well done for two things at least. Firstly, being honest about the meaning of IQ. Many people are starting to think that 140+ is genius level and it should be obvious that is nonsense. Secondly, well done on your philosophy PhD. I got a B.A. in philosophy. To some extent, the dissertation I wrote was more masters level, without the more rigorous referencing and structure which that would require, and I continued long after with my ideas regarding epistemology. I hope you will tell me .... what was your specialisation in philosophy?

My specialization was Indian philosophy vs Western philosophytongue.png

What was yours?wink.png

Avatar of Optimissed

Epistemology, I suppose. I did do a module on Indian or Eastern philosophy but it was presented by an English guy who was held in very great regard but who was a Buddhist convert, more or less. I was more interested in classical Hinduism. I remember having to do an essay on "Is Emptiness Really Empty", which can be approached from all angles, really, and was a bit like the classic school detention essay, "On the inside of a ping pong ball". Having spent five months in India in 1976, I had become interested.

Avatar of binomine
RichardMCraven wrote:
binomine wrote:

I don't think you can correlate the two, but if you want some data...

My son's IQ is 137 measured and his rating is 167. 

I have no doubt he is a genius and the things he puts together are insane, but if the computer wasn't correcting his illegal moves, he probably wouldn't be able to play at all. 

137 puts your son in the top 1%, which is very intelligent but not genius-level. My iq was measured at 140 at school 45 years ago, and I was regarded as gifted rather than an outstanding student - generally near the top of my class but rarely at the pinnacle. I did a Philosophy PhD a few years ago in my early middle age, which I'm very proud of, but it wasn't easy. There were people in my cohort who were very obviously much cleverer than me.

Well to be fair, due to the Flynn effect, your IQ would be lower than my son's.  tongue.png

I would counter that the existence of Magnus Carlsen does not make John Bartholomew a weak chess player, despite the fact that Carlsen is significantly stronger than Bartholomew. 

Avatar of JijoAttumalilJose
Optimissed wrote:

Epistemology, I suppose. I did do a module on Indian or Eastern philosophy but it was presented by an English guy who was held in very great regard but who was a Buddhist convert, more or less. I was more interested in classical Hinduism. I remember having to do an essay on "Is Emptiness Really Empty", which can be approached from all angles, really, and was a bit like the classic school detention essay, "On the inside of a ping pong ball". Having spent five months in India in 1976, I had become interested.

Yes! 

We say 'nothing is impossible'.

Q. Then, what is impossible?

Ans. Nothing

Then, what is this 'nothing'?

We indirectly say that 'nothing' is impossible.

It means that there is something impossible. And the impossible thing is 'nothing'.

tongue.pngwink.png

 

Avatar of Optimissed

Some things are nothing to be worried about and no things are something to be scared of.

Avatar of RichardMCraven
Optimissed wrote:
RichardMCraven wrote:
binomine wrote:

I don't think you can correlate the two, but if you want some data...

My son's IQ is 137 measured and his rating is 167. 

I have no doubt he is a genius and the things he puts together are insane, but if the computer wasn't correcting his illegal moves, he probably wouldn't be able to play at all. 

137 puts your son in the top 1%, which is very intelligent but not genius-level. My iq was measured at 140 at school 45 years ago, and I was regarded as gifted rather than an outstanding student - generally near the top of my class but rarely at the pinnacle. I did a Philosophy PhD a few years ago in my early middle age, which I'm very proud of, but it wasn't easy. There were people in my cohort who were very obviously much cleverer than me.

Well done for two things at least. Firstly, being honest about the meaning of IQ. Many people are starting to think that 140+ is genius level and it should be obvious that is nonsense. Secondly, well done on your philosophy PhD. I got a B.A. in philosophy. To some extent, the dissertation I wrote was more masters level, without the more rigorous referencing and structure which that would require, and I continued long after with my ideas regarding epistemology. I hope you will tell me .... what was your specialisation in philosophy?

Nice to hear from you. My thesis was on modality, basically a response to David Lewis postulating a counterpart theory without possible worlds. I'm not really a born philosopher; I was really just scratching an itch, and quit the day of my award. Nowadays I write literary fiction and formal verse, 99.9% in iambic pentameter.

Avatar of RichardMCraven
Optimissed wrote:

Some things are nothing to be worried about and no things are something to be scared of.

I forgot to ask where you did your BA. My first degree was in Eng. Lit. as an 18 year old at UCL. Then I went back to UCL as a 29 year old for my Philosophy BA, and did my MA & PhD at Bristol in my early to mid 40's - I'm in my late 50's now.

Avatar of UNKNOWENMASTER

169 IQ 11 Years

Avatar of CristianoRonaldosuuu

Im 124 IQ and 1400 in chess 14 n been playing for 1 year

Avatar of Chopy_Zampotto

I didn't take a test from a psychologist but I attempted and failed the mensa admission, so my IQ is certainly <131 (they don't tell you anymore the exact result). I'm 35, started playing 4-5 months ago (before that I didn't even know the rules). Chess.com rating is really swinging as I use it mostly to test new openings, my max was around 735 (rapid). I successfully killed Nelson and the 1500 bot, and yesterday I also won against the 2000 one but I think there was a bug somewheregrin.png . That's all.

Avatar of BlackLawliet

Thank you guys for all of your responses. They will be of much help figuring out wether tere is a correlation between IQ and chess pr not!

Avatar of Wurstzug

120, 5 years practiced, 13 years