Chess will never be solved, here's why

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playerafar

A job is being done here of showing various ways chess will Not be solved. 
Neither strongly nor 'weakly'.  
'Weak' solving has to be 'strong' enough. 
For now the weak ways are too weak. 
And that's being dissected and isolated and displayed here.

haiaku

What is really impossible to understand, if not hypothesizing that you do not understand or you are evasive, is why you address questions other than those raised, or repeat the same things like a spammer:

tygxc wrote:

"you try to impress the occasional reader of this thread using concepts like cloud computing, heuristics, quantum mechanics, complex numbers, etc."
++ No, not at all. [ . . . repetitions . . . ] I have seen a quantum electrodynamical calculation on the probability of absorption of 1, 2, 3... photons using Feynman diagrams. It is in the booklet "QED" by Feynman. I do not have it on my shelf, so I cannot tell you page and line.

And how that should answer the question you were supposed to answer?

tygxc wrote:

Even in your car crashes analogy: every insurance company will tell you they settle more minor damages than they settle total losses.

That's an answer to a different question.

tygxc wrote:

Let us do some simple high school math
Let D represent the rate of decisive games
Let E represent the error rate per game
D = E + E³ + E^5 + E^7 + ... = E / (1 - E²)
Hence
[ . . . ]

I told you such behaviour is just insulting. You repeat things exactly the same as if we were stupid, or we could just get convinced through repetition. If you want to reference things for newcomers, instead, you can just make a link. As @btickler already explained preceding me, your calculations would be correct if your premises were correct. We know the geometric series, don't worry. I asked you to prove those premises, though, starting from the question on the probabilities.

tygxc wrote:

So the data show, that 99% of ICCF WC draws are ideal games with optimal moves that thus are part of the weak solution of chess.

Another just offensive repetition. We already contested your conclusions. If you want you can raise questions about those objections, as we do with yours.

tygxc wrote:

"We have not strongly solved chess, so the only positions we know are wins or draws, are those which can be calculated to the checkmate or to the endgame tablebase"
++ I also consider chess ultra-weakly solved and the game-theoretic value of the initial position to be a draw. Any other would contradict the observed data.

You are just dismissing my objection to that, with no counter-objection.

tygxc wrote:

Also positions with a forced 3-fold repetition are known draws, e.g. perpetual checks.
This commonly happens in ICCF WC games, more than table base draws.

Ok, also 3-fold repetitions other than checkmate. That does not change the main point.

tygxc wrote:

"thus it is obvious that if they get a won position they play it optimally, because we know that position is won by analysis and tablebases"
++ Once they reach the table base draw, they stop playing and just claim the draw.

You talked about a won position, and now you talk about a draw, but you didn't address my whole objection.

tygxc wrote:

"that doesn't mean they play all the other positions with few errors"
++ No, but the low error rate results from the low draw rate.
In an ICCF WC the error rate E = 0.10: 1 error in 10 games.

Another repetition. It's based on your not proven premises; see above.

tygxc wrote:

"you cannot start with the assumption that the probability of a blunder is "very, very" low"
++ No, I do not start with that assumption, I derive it from the data.
In the ICCF WC games E² = 0.01: 2 errors in 1 of 100 games.

Based on assumed premises. Do you see that you simply avoid issues? I repeat my whole objection here, only because you just dismembered it, without countering it:

haiaku wrote:

We have not strongly solved chess, so the only positions we know are wins or draws, are those which can be calculated to the checkmate or to the endgame tablebase (or to a 3-fold repetition, a 50 move rule hit, ok), thus it is obvious that if they get a won position they play it optimally, because we know that position is won by analysis and tablebases; that doesn't mean they play all the other positions with few errors. Therefore, you cannot start with the assumption that the probability of a blunder is "very, very" low.

 

tygxc wrote:

"Stop jumping to conclusions"
++ That is how science works: deduction and induction. E.g. [ . . . ] Newton derived his laws of motion and of gravity from Kepler's laws. He invented the calculus he needed for that.

Yes, Holmes, and dog's and cat's brains work like that too, but the problem is your inductions are faulty generalizations IMO, and your deductions not rigorous enough to be scientific, and we explained you why. Instead of objecting our objections, you just repeat your points. That for sure is not how science work.

BTW, Newton did not derive his laws of motion and gravity from Kepler's laws and specifying the rest has no relevance, you are just bragging wink.png.

haiaku

Oh no, I see now! You think your inventions are like the invention (or discovery) of calculus!

DiogenesDue

"Kettle, a Mr. Pot at the door to see you..."

playerafar

@tygxc although 'wanting to talk about solving' is also demonstrating power.
He's demonstrating that he can continue as he has.
While getting considerable response.  And continuing to.
"solving chess" - although a much more popular subject (in all its many forms) than some here realize - isn't in the 'sensitive and loaded' category of things like religion and politics and Covid and current world affairs ...
so almost any position can be 'gotten away with'.
He isn't going to be censured for 'spreading Invalid 'solving' Disinformation throughout the internet'.  happy.png

Idea:  Some conversation of the subject can go on around him - while not having to ignore his ideas.  It has.
But I'd say he's dominated the forum throughout.
Congratulations !   There's not really any harm done from that. 
Not from him.
And - solving chess is an intellectual subject.
People will make their contributions to the subject.  Their way.
Regardless of how whoever projects his projections.

@tygxc deserves some good treatment - because he does not do that.
He manages to be civil.  Not a lot of personalization from him.
Another reason that he's 'dominated' so far.  
Those who are worried about who is 'dominant'  (apparently there's only one and its not I) will continue to complain.  happy.png
Now there might be some pingpong.  But between who ?

tygxc

#2452

"You're doing it backwards."
++ Yes, it may be unusual. See my analogy: not the celestial orbits from gravity and motion, but gravity and motion from astronomical observations.

"You can't use an error rate derived from imperfect play and imperfect evaluations."
++Yes, I can draw conclusions from data.

"You need to weakly solve chess before you can claim a valid error rate."
++ I said I consider chess ultra-weakly solved and the game-theoretic value to be a draw. From that and the data I can conclude that 99% of the ICCF WC draws are ideal games with optimal moves.

"You *can* see how often engine play matches a tablebase if you turn off their tablebase access, because tablebases do represent perfect play"
++ Yes, that is right. That is why I suggested to take a 7-men position like KRPP vs. KRP. There was one posted and I found the engine top 1 move matches the table base exact move. You are free to suggest another KRPP vs. KRP. I predict that the table base perfect move will always be within the top 4 engine moves.

"What you mean to say is that 99% of ICCF WC draws have no errors *detectable by the engines evaluating the games"
++ No, I do not refer to the engine evaluations, I only refer to the final result: draw.

"These engines *cannot determine ideal games or even optimal moves in most cases"
++ It is not the engines that determine ideal games it are the results: the draws from table bases, from forced 3-fold repetitions, from reaching known drawn endgames like opposite colored bishops or KRPPPP vs. KRPPP or less pawns on 1 wing.
The table base optimal move is always expected to be within the top 4 engine moves at 60 h/move. If you disagree, then try to find a KRPP vs. KRP where that is not true. In the previously posted example it was true.

DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

<<BTW, Newton did not derive his laws of motion and gravity from Kepler's laws and specifying the rest has no relevance, you are just bragging>>

Newton was a very accomplished plagiarist, who had less net input into knowledge than is often imagined. Much of what he wrote was plagiarised from Hooke's work. Hooke was the greater genius and Newton had all his work destroyed to cover his own sins. Kepler's input into Newton's work would have been considerable.

Given your views of Einstein, this position is hardly surprising.  I suspect if we were to name 100 luminaries of human advancement, you would have 95 other people who should have received the credit.  Makes one wonder how your life progressed and affected this viewpoint you have.

DiogenesDue
tygxc wrote:

"You can't use an error rate derived from imperfect play and imperfect evaluations."
Yes I can draw conclusions from data.

I agree.  You can and do regularly draw (faulty) conclusions from (faulty) data.

All the gobbledegook about ultra weekly solving (which is as silly as "semi-strong" if you actually understand the definitions of weak and strong solutions, which are yes/no propositions) is just you making more assumptions that won't hold up.

tygxc

#2463
Newton may have borrowed from Hooke and he himself acknowledged:
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants"
Likewise Einstein may have borrowed from Minkowki and he himself echoed the same phrase of acknowledgement.

Both created science by induction, not by deduction.
Newton did not prove that F = md²x/dt² or F = Gm1m2/r².
Einstein did not prove dilatation of space & time or curvature of space-time.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
Their theories have been accepted as true because they explain experimental results.
Newton explained astronomical observations of planetary motions from his theory.
Einstein explained astronomical observations of Jupiter's moons and predicted a certain deviation during the solar eclipse of 1918.

Also Gauss invented most of his mathematics with the purpose of helping to interpret astronomical observations.
He also invented modulo arithmetic to calculate the date of Easter. "Notiones, non notationes"

On the subject of weakly solving chess, I induce from data: AlphaZero autoplay at 1 s/move and 1 min/move, ICCF WC results.

tygxc

#2464
"All the gobbledegook about ultra weekly solving (which is as silly as "semi-strong" if you actually understand the definitions of weak and strong solutions"
++ I repeat: "ultra-weakly solved means that the game-theoretic value of the initial position has been determined, weakly solved means that for the initial position a strategy has been determined to achieve the game-theoretic value against any opposition, and strongly solved is being used for a game for which such a strategy has been determined for all legal positions" - van den Herik

playerafar

A great scientist 'induced' something (but with some valid logic in mind) so any old 'induction' with little or no logic is therefore valid ?
Hahahah. 
Somebody is having a lot of chuckles while people vigorously and rightly but 'vulnerably' disagree.
Some of the things he's skipped over - well perhaps they could be 'induced' to be like quantum particles ...  'winking' out of existence?
Like needed speed of computers ?
'Wink' seems to fit.   happy.png

ifemo

ef is the MOST

FAMOUS

MOVE

EVER!!!

haiaku
Optimissed wrote:

However, both sides go in for meaningless pretences of erudition. Everybody is trying to out-impress each other: it's what makes this thread so educational. To communicate, there has to be co-operation and no-one wants that, because it would mean the facades would be wiped clean away. Everyone would be seen more clearly for what they actually bring! Oh no!!!

No, the problem is not even the boasting. I was talking about @tygxc 's tendency, in giving answers, to change the subject with another (possibly higher level) one, in order to avoid issues with his theories. This is plainly deceptive, but now he will simply add "deceptive" to the list of insults we have used to address him, just because I didn't mince words...

I mean, for goodness sake, we are not the "Nature" board, but how @tygxc would deal with a journal, if they did not simply ignore him and asked for clarifications and pointed out issues? He would just skip the issues, answer different questions, change subject, repeat the same things and say they are not at his level... What conclusion about him can be drawn from this attitude?

MARattigan
tygxc wrote:

++ I repeat: .... weakly solved means that for the initial position a strategy has been determined to achieve the game-theoretic value against any opposition ...

When you're shown to be in error you simply continue posting the same thing. 

You seem to be absolutely incapable of taking in any information.

playerafar

"What conclusion can be drawn from this attitude?"
That he will get away with it.  And continue to.
What's often interesting in these situations - is whether the person actually believes his own spiel.
My theory is that they usually do - but only for some of the time.  
They have 'cycles'.  Transience.

playerafar
MARattigan wrote:
tygxc wrote:

++ I repeat: .... weakly solved means that for the initial position a strategy has been determined to achieve the game-theoretic value against any opposition ...

When you're shown to be in error you simply continue posting the same thing. 

You seem to be absolutely incapable of taking in any information.

That's right. 
But he keeps finding slight variations in how to dance around it.

tygxc

#2469
"we are not the "Nature" board, but how @tygxc would deal with a journal"
++ Haha, I have a fair number of publications in peer-reviewed scientific journals.
I have even refuted one published article in Nature which was retracted afterwards.
#2470
"When you're shown to be in error you simply continue posting the same thing. "
I am not in error. I adopt the generally accepted definition of van den Herik. You are in error trying to force your own personal, erroneous definition.

MARattigan
tygxc wrote:

...
#2470
"When you're shown to be in error you simply continue posting the same thing. "
I am not in error. I adopt the generally accepted definition of van den Herik. You are in error trying to force your own personal, erroneous definition.

The definition you give:

weakly solved means that for the initial position a strategy has been determined to achieve the game-theoretic value against any opposition

is not generally accepted.

One more time (at least the third time):

White to play

The strategy 

Play 1.Qa7

Achieves the game theoretic value for the position (a win for Black) against any opposition.

So, according to your definition, the strategy is a weak solution for the position.

As I already said, finding an infallible way for a player to lose is not the generally accepted definition of a weak solution.

My definition:

weakly solved means that for the initial position either a timely strategy has been determined for one player that achieves a win against any opposition, or a timely strategy has been determined for both players that avoids a loss against any opposition. 

is the generally accepted definition.

What is erroneous about it?

How can you expect anyone to take anything you say seriously if you don't know what you're trying to do in the first place?

haiaku
tygxc wrote:

#2469
"we are not the "Nature" board, but how @tygxc would deal with a journal"
++ Haha, I have a fair number of publications in peer-reviewed scientific journals.
I have even refuted one published article in Nature which was retracted afterwards.

l suppose one can say whatever they like about themselves, but we only judge for what we read here, as you said. BTW, I asked you before, whether you could provide a peer-reviewed paper supporting your theory and you said you cannot find any. Have you already experience of publishing? Well then, why don't you write such a paper? Or have you already written it, but no one accepted to publish? Anyway, everyone will be free to compare the quality of your inductions and deductions with what can be found in scientific papers and textbooks and judge with their own mind.

To me your post just confirms that instead of really addressing some questions raised on your reasoning, you try to distract and impress people, to have they say: "he's not questionable, ipse dixit", that for sure is not scientific. A couple of questions I asked you, are still pending. Would you like to answer them with more than ten words and without simply repeating yourself, instead of flaunting your credentials?

Terron016
Contenchess wrote:

Chess is about mistakes so a computer solving Chess has no bearing on humans. We will still play Chess and we will continue to make mistakes.                                                                                                                     Here hear'