Chess will never be solved, here's why

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Avatar of tygxc

#245
Nakamura was trolling and so are you.

#246
Most chess games are won by resignation, some by loss on time, very rarely by checkmate. When a player reaches the conclusion that a loss is inevitable it makes sense to resign.

Likewise most chess games are drawn by agreement, some by 3-fold repetition, some by no series of legal moves leading to checkmate, some by stalemate, very rarely by the 50-moves rule.
When both players reach the conclusion that a draw is inevitable it makes sense to agree on a draw.

Avatar of MARattigan
tygxc wrote:

#245
Nakamura was trolling and so are you.

But he won the game. Is Syzygy (playing perfectly) trolling here?


I suspect your accusation of trolling just masks an unwillingness to concede the point.

#246
Most chess games are won by resignation, some by loss on time, very rarely by checkmate. When a player reaches the conclusion that a loss is inevitable it makes sense to resign.

What on Earth has that got to do with #246 (or solving chess).

Likewise most chess games are drawn by agreement, some by 3-fold repetition, some by no series of legal moves leading to checkmate, very rarely by the 50-moves rule.
When both players reach the conclusion that a draw is inevitable it makes sense to agree on a draw.

But I repeat; is it not usual to ignore agreed draws in theoretical work?

 

Avatar of mylongrake

Lots of possibilities, but nowhere near infinity.

Avatar of tygxc

#248
Nakamura could have won much faster, but he chose to troll and have fun with 6 knights.
Underpromotions rarely happen and usually have the point to avoid stalemate or to exploit the unique properties of a knight. Multiple excess underpromotions play no role at all. That is why the Tromp count is way too high for the purpose assessing the feasibility of solving chess.

Your KQBN example has neither underpromotions nor excess promotions. Indeed 1 Qc7+ 2 Qa7# is faster hence 1 Qc8+ is trolling.

If a position is a draw, then neither side has a valid reason to avoid the draw by 3 fold repetition or by the 50 moves rule. If a position is lost, then the losing side has a valid reason to claim a draw by 3-fold repetition or by the 50 moves rule and the winning side has reason to avoid a 3-fold repetition or the 50 moves rule taking effect. Thus the fact that the draw has to be claimed plays no role: the losing side claims.

Avatar of SmallerCircles

Would chess being solved require a proof of the existence of a perfect strategy or the actual construction of a perfect strategy. If it's only the existence that's necessary, I could see that happening in the next century. If it's actually getting a computer to be able to play the perfect strategy, I doubt we're capable.

Avatar of Optimissed

There's an 80% probability, with a 90% confidence factor that Haworth's Law is poppycock.

Avatar of Optimissed
SmallerCircles wrote:

Would chess being solved require a proof of the existence of a perfect strategy or the actual construction of a perfect strategy. If it's only the existence that's necessary, I could see that happening in the next century. If it's actually getting a computer to be able to play the perfect strategy, I doubt we're capable.

The way they are approaching it is tactics (i.e. "concrete moves") only. It's wrong.

Avatar of playerafar

Regarding elimination of 'illogical' positions as opposed to illegal ones ...  that could become error-prone.

The business of the 50 move rule greatly increases the maximum possible positions ...  but I'm suggesting that the 50 move rule and the 3-fold repetition rule could both be ignored for the purpose of maximum positions.  
There could be adjustments for en passant possible or not - and castling legal or not ...  but the issue with such increases - is that its beginning to discuss possible games again ... instead of positions - a much more Concrete thing.

Regarding the game aspect - I'm suggesting the number of positions only needs whose move it is - and perhaps a cutdown regarding positions that are 'legal' but could not have been legally arrived at.  

Regarding positions where castling might or might not be legal because a King might have moved or not - those could be added to a special category for special cases.
Regarding  the 50 move rule being added - could that 50 move rule potentially increase Every Single Position ?
No.   Positions of King + King + Knight can't be increased by the 50 move rule.  
Could a position of the original Grand position be subject to the 50 move rule?  Knights hopping out and then returning again ?
I would say no - because repetition would take precedence ....
Therefore - again - the number of positions where a 50 rule might be relevant - could be qualitatively and quantitatively reported separately.  
Like with castling and en passant 'maybe possible - maybe not'.

Avatar of Elroch
tygxc wrote:

#241
PROBABLY, No human/engine players right in their minds would underpromote 5 white rooks, 3 black knights and a 2nd black dark square bishop.

All of Tromp's randomly sampled positions look like that.

While I understand your intuitive attitude, nowhere in any any valid proof does it use inductive reasoning like this. Your confidence in its accuracy based on your personal experience of some random (6 figure? i.e. tiny) sample of games between imperfect players is not useful to the problem of solving chess.

 

Avatar of Ilampozhil25
tygxc wrote:

#248
Nakamura could have won much faster, but he chose to troll and have fun with 6 knights.
Underpromotions rarely happen and usually have the point to avoid stalemate or to exploit the unique properties of a knight. Multiple excess underpromotions play no role at all. That is why the Tromp count is way too high for the purpose assessing the feasibility of solving chess.

Your KQBN example has neither underpromotions nor excess promotions. Indeed 1 Qc7+ 2 Qa7# is faster hence 1 Qc8+ is trolling.

If a position is a draw, then neither side has a valid reason to avoid the draw by 3 fold repetition or by the 50 moves rule. If a position is lost, then the losing side has a valid reason to claim a draw by 3-fold repetition or by the 50 moves rule and the winning side has reason to avoid a 3-fold repetition or the 50 moves rule taking effect. Thus the fact that the draw has to be claimed plays no role: the losing side claims.

no, it is simply how dtz works

qc8 and then the 50 move rule is zeroed in 1 move

qc7 ka8 qa7 and then the checkmate is achieved in 2 moves

this is just a problem with dtz, which is used by syzygy(i presume)`

Avatar of playerafar

Regarding players refusing to resign in hopeless positions ... many many times I've taken all of an opponents pieces and pawns - leaving me with as many as 7 promotable pawns.
As I make it clear that I'm not going to robotically pursue fastest mate in such situations - half of such opponents resign - realizing that I'm going to go for many knight-promotes.
So whether getting four knight promotes or up to seven ...  some don't resign.  So I take them up on it - and don't block them.
Preferring to mate with the knights alone and little or no King or other piece assistance.  A very few opponents have moaned and whined about me doing so ...  happy.png .   They get blocked.
Four knights can be brought to the four central squares of the board.
Confines the Lone King to the Edge !  happy.png  Mate from there.
But the more knights - the easier.  You can make a wall - that constricts from the sides ....

Avatar of tygxc

#251
Solving chess = proving that black has at least 1 move that draws against every sensible white move.

#254
A position with castling rights is different from a position without castling rights. A position with possible en passant is different from a position with en passant possibility. It is counted differently as such in the 3.8125 legal chess positions. See also
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forsyth%E2%80%93Edwards_Notation 

Avatar of tygxc

#255
Do not push the agnosticism too far.
Yes 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6 might win for white, there is no proof of the contrary.
Yes 1 e4 f5 might win for black, there is no proof of the contrary.
However we know that is not so.
Likewise underpromotions to rook, bishop, knight are sometimes useful to avoid stalemate or to use the unique properties of the knight, but every human or engine player promotes to a queen when there is no compelling reason not to. Hence the random samples from the Tromp count represent positions that never result from a perfect or even reasonable game of chess. That is why the Tromp count is way too high for the purpose of assessing the feasibility of solving chess.

Avatar of playerafar

@tygxc
Yes I think we know they're different.  With/without castling/enpassant and 50 move rule and 3-fold too ...
But I'm suggesting - that for practical purposes - that can either be ignored - or seen as Secondary.
With the actual max piece setups as primary.

Another big cutdown could occur - with positions that are rotations and reflections of each other.  
Note that whose move it is matters - but then does that 'cancel' with color reversals ?

In many endgames - many positions shifted to left or right on the board - play the same.  Many don't.  Especially when the edge of the board is too close.
Endgame positions shifted up and down the board - might not change either.
The most Notable Exception is with Sixth Rank King ...
such a King does not need opposition to win the basic K+P ending because there's no Ninth Rank.
There are ways to relate the discussion back to 'regular chess'.

Avatar of Optimissed
playerafar wrote:

Regarding elimination of 'illogical' positions as opposed to illegal ones ...  that could become error-prone.

The business of the 50 move rule greatly increases the maximum possible positions ...  but I'm suggesting that the 50 move rule and the 3-fold repetition rule could both be ignored for the purpose of maximum positions. 


The three-fold repetition rule doesn't increase the number of possible positions. The existence of the 50 move rule potentially doubles the number of positions that are affected by it. However, all that is necessary is to decide whether the 50 move rule is in force or not. Logically, it should not be considered to be in force because what should be prioritised is whether chess, in its purest form, is capable of being shown to win or draw with best play. After that has been completed, if ever (I think never), any artificial constraints may be applied.

However, this thread's like designing an elephant by a committee of short-sighted ants. Someone may be talking sense here but there's such a lack of clarity all round that it doesn't make sense to try to determine who, if anyone, it is.

Avatar of tygxc

#260
The endgame table bases use symmetry to reduce the size.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endgame_tablebase 
The count of 3.8125 * 10^37 positions does not take symmetry into consideration. Left/right symmetry is broken by castling. Up/down symmmetry is broken by white pawns maching up and black pawns marching down.

Avatar of tygxc

#261
This is what solving chess means:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solved_game 

Avatar of DiogenesDue

The premise that removing positions that "don't make sense" will reduce the problem by 7 orders of magnitude is not feasible.

The very calculations to check the criteria you would need on each position in itself is a huge amount of processing power at that scale...or, were you planning on having the human assistants check the criteria manually? wink.png

[Note that *even if you somehow predetermined every position that is not sensible* to avoid those calculations, just skipping the ones that are on the list (3.1622776e+44 if you accept the faulty 10^37 number) would again be a huge amount of time spent]

Avatar of playerafar

The 50 move rule potentially greatly increases the number of positions because of the variable number of moves left in the 50 - with potential for players to inefficiently pursue a fast win - and with some controversies whether there is in fact a win available with the variable number of moves left.
Therefore - the claim that it 'only doubles' is invalid.  Because it wrongly premises that all such positions are 'solved'.   Which is not the case. 

Avatar of playerafar
tygxc wrote:

#260
The endgame table bases use symmetry to reduce the size.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endgame_tablebase 
The count of 3.8125 * 10^37 positions does not take symmetry into consideration. Left/right symmetry is broken by castling. Up/down symmmetry is broken by white pawns maching up and black pawns marching down.

Only in some cases.  And in endgames - castling is seldom even theoretically available.
Up/down equivalency is not broken by 'pawns marching'.