Chess will never be solved, here's why

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tygxc

#3901
"rubbish" "they can't think straight" "completely dumb" "people of low ability"
++ Why if you are rated 2500 in debating you have to sling insults like a toddler?
"See how I put the definitions into plainer English."
++ Like a a translator with perfect conduct of English, but no clue about the subject. 
Why with IQ 170 you cannot appreciate that the definitions are carefully worded so as to apply to all cases? This is just hubris. This emeritus professor van den Herik is completely dumb, of low ability, cannot think straight and writes rubbish. I Optimissed will rewrite it so that it makes no sense whatsoever.
The same with chess being weakly solvable in 5 years. When Sveshnikov, grandmaster, 65+ world champion, author of books, professional chess analyst, MSc. Eng. near the end of his life says in an interview chess can be weakly solved in 5 years, you coud at least listen and think instead of outright dismissing it on no grounds at all.

stancco
Optimissed wrote:
TheNumberTwenty wrote:

What's amazing is that the 10^120 fact that everyone throws around doesn't even scratch the surface of every possible chess position... The famous 10^120 positions assumes a game that goes on for exactly 40 moves. Considering the fact that with the 50 moves draw rule the actual longest possible chess game is several thousand moves, you can only imagine how many orders of magnitude higher the actual number of chess positions are. Maybe something like 10^200 which is a number almost impossible to imagine.



To be fair, it's possible to work out the number of positions by simple arithmetic. That doesn't alter, dependant on the number of lines. It's the number of possible games which increases as the move numbers increase and not the positions, which is fixed.

Every possible position isn't relevant. Every relevant position or line is relevant

Exactly.

99.7% of all possible positions are not relevant.

tygxc

#3905

"I just understand that all your shortcuts require determinations to reduce the 10^44 positions "
++ No, there are no determinations needed at all. Only a tiny fraction of the 10^44 legal positions shows up during the solving process. Losing Chess has been weakly solved with only 10^9 positions not 10^44.
Look at the 3 sampled positions counted into the 10^44
https://github.com/tromp/ChessPositionRanking
It is clear that errors must have been made to reach those positions.

"Your arbitrary reductions will require a massive amount of computation to apply your arbitrary criteria to each position simply to eliminate it from consideration."
++ You still do not get it. I do not apply criteria and I do not need any computation to reduce positions, they just do not show up during the solution.

"More like a watered down attempt at a forward moving tablebase to meet the retrograde analysis in the middle." ++ That is how Checkers and Losing Chess have been weakly solved.
Have you read how they have done it?
http://magma.maths.usyd.edu.au/~watkins/LOSING_CHESS/LCsolved.pdf

https://www.cs.mcgill.ca/~dprecup/courses/AI/Materials/checkers_is_solved.pdf 
They did not start from the set of legal positions and then reduced that. They started from the initial position and then calculated towards the table base and at the end they had weakly solved it and then they counted they had visited 10^14 resp 10^9 positions in the process.

"you are not working backwards from mate" ++ I am not trying to strongly solve chess and compile a 32-men table base, that is not feasible.

tygxc

#3927

"99.7% of all possible positions are not relevant."
++ Only 10^17 positions of the 10^44 legal positions are relevant.
That is 1 position in 10^27 positions.
  0.0000000000000000000000001% of legal positions is relevant.
99.9999999999999999999999999% of legal positions is irrelevant.

renantepulma

Do you think. The confidence of 1/80 will do?  wink.pngwink.pnghappy.png

tygxc

#3911

"The lines that no one has explored down to the tablebases yet, are unkown elements."
++ Many positions with more men than 7 are known draws or losses as well.
Many endgames with opposite colored bishops are known draws.
Many positions with huge material differences like a queen up are known wins.

"how do we know that the positions in S are draws?"
++ For all positions of 7 men or less and even some positions with 8 men it is known from the table base. For some endgames like opposite colored bishops it is known from analysis. For some middlegame positions with huge imbalance it is known from experience and from logic.

"you have no reason to believe that there will ever be a reliable proof." ++ A matter of money.

"All analyses will be impossible to check." ++ And for Checkers and Losing Chess?

"To me the only real proof is an exhaustive one" ++ Connect Four has been solved independently in two different ways: an exhaustive one by Allen and a set of 7 rules by Allis.
I believe weakly solving chess will be a combination of both.

"If one million mathematicians do all agree that T is a theorem, they might all be mistaken."
++ This has been heavily debated for the Four Color Theorem, but in the end it was agreed.

"A statement like "chess is a draw because of the equalizing tendency" really cannot be considered scientific, or nearly as reliable as a computer-assisted proof by exhaustion."
++ That is vague.
However: white is 1 tempo up, experience shows 3 tempi are worth 1 pawn, 1 pawn is enough to win a game by queening it, 1 tempo is not enough to win, makes sense.

Also: 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6 white is a bishop down. A bishop is worth 3 pawns. A bishop is enough to win. 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6 is a win for black. That is without an exhaustive calculation to checkmate in all lines.

DiogenesDue
stancco wrote:

Exactly.

99.7% of all possible positions are not relevant.

Okay, so that leaves with 10^41 positions.  What's your next step?

stancco
tygxc wrote:

#3927

"99.7% of all possible positions are not relevant."
++ Only 10^17 positions of the 10^44 legal positions are relevant.
That is 1 position in 10^27 positions.
  0.0000000000000000000000001% of legal positions is relevant.
99.9999999999999999999999999% of legal positions is irrelevant.

I know.

I was rather figurative.

leaniske
Computer>brain.
DiogenesDue
tygxc wrote:

#3905

"I just understand that all your shortcuts require determinations to reduce the 10^44 positions "
++ No, there are no determinations needed at all. Only a tiny fraction of the 10^44 legal positions shows up during the solving process. Losing Chess has been weakly solved with only 10^9 positions not 10^44.
Look at the 3 sampled positions counted into the 10^44
https://github.com/tromp/ChessPositionRanking
It is clear that errors must have been made to reach those positions.

"Your arbitrary reductions will require a massive amount of computation to apply your arbitrary criteria to each position simply to eliminate it from consideration."
++ You still do not get it. I do not apply criteria and I do not need any computation to reduce positions, they just do not show up during the solution.

"More like a watered down attempt at a forward moving tablebase to meet the retrograde analysis in the middle." ++ That is how Checkers and Losing Chess have been weakly solved.
Have you read how they have done it?
http://magma.maths.usyd.edu.au/~watkins/LOSING_CHESS/LCsolved.pdf

https://www.cs.mcgill.ca/~dprecup/courses/AI/Materials/checkers_is_solved.pdf 
They did not start from the set of legal positions and then reduced that. They started from the initial position and then calculated towards the table base and at the end they had weakly solved it and then they counted they had visited 10^14 resp 10^9 positions in the process.

"you are not working backwards from mate" ++ I am not trying to strongly solve chess and compile a 32-men table base, that is not feasible.

I have read about the checkers solution, "Losing Chess" would be a waste of time.  Checkers reduced from ~10^20 down to 10^14.  And the solution did not just use the Chinook engine.  So, naturally, that means you can just go from 10^44 to 10^17 for chess and use only Stockfish wink.png...

DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

You're all three wrong in your different ways.

When asked to give a reason why I shouldn't be able to know that chess is drawn, haiuku couldn't get past the idea of "because it's unknown". When asked what could cause the equalising tendency in chess to mysteriously reverse, the answer was "because Relativity wasn't predicted". When told that there's no comparison because chess is a defined and finite system **in the way it operates as opposed to the search tree**, there was the verbal equivalent of a blank stare.

tygxc believes that anyone disagreeing with the definitions of the technical jargon he prefers to employ is showing they don't understand it, even though he's shown that he never even attempts to understand things he didn't know, preferring to reject them. I include tygxc here because although he also thinks chess is drawn, his confused ideas on the subject and an insistence that "the definitions are good" make it difficult.

bickler is a tricky combination of both of them, who cherry-picks what he wants, to win arguments he wants to engage with, for whatever reason; and constantly deflects and avoids good arguments, meaning that he doesn't engage. Instead, a constant engagement with tygxc means that he avoids the discussion proper and that seems to be a deliberate strategy, aimed at giving an impression rather than producing anything substantial.

No-one has shown that I am not reasonably entitled to believe that I know that chess is drawn with best play. One might remark that there was no proper opposition and that a contrary argument could be better represented by cleverer people. But I can assure you (anyone who is so bored that they're reading this) that a discussion with more able people would mean that there was a good chance chance of them understanding and perhaps agreeing with at least some of the points I've raised.

When the opponent disagrees with everything, that seems to be a childish technique, tending to demonstrate that the discussion goes above the head. Disagreement with everything implies, in practice, understanding of very little. So the argument has been concluded, as far as I'm concerned. No-one here has shown that I cannot know, without doubt, that chess is drawn with best play.

Does any of us actually need to be here for any of this fantasizing?  Please clean up after you are done...

Elroch
tygxc wrote:

#3911

"The lines that no one has explored down to the tablebases yet, are unkown elements."
++ Many positions with more men than 7 are known draws or losses as well.
Many endgames with opposite colored bishops are known draws.
Many positions with huge material differences like a queen up are known wins.

"how do we know that the positions in S are draws?"
++ For all positions of 7 men or less and even some positions with 8 men it is known from the table base. For some endgames like opposite colored bishops it is known from analysis. For some middlegame positions with huge imbalance it is known from experience and from logic.

"you have no reason to believe that there will ever be a reliable proof." ++ A matter of money.

"All analyses will be impossible to check." ++ And for Checkers and Losing Chess?

"To me the only real proof is an exhaustive one" ++ Connect Four has been solved independently in two different ways: an exhaustive one by Allen and a set of 7 rules by Allis.
I believe weakly solving chess will be a combination of both.

"If one million mathematicians do all agree that T is a theorem, they might all be mistaken."
++ This has been heavily debated for the Four Color Theorem, but in the end it was agreed.

"A statement like "chess is a draw because of the equalizing tendency" really cannot be considered scientific, or nearly as reliable as a computer-assisted proof by exhaustion."
++ That is vague.
However: white is 1 tempo up, experience shows 3 tempi are worth 1 pawn, 1 pawn is enough to win a game by queening it, 1 tempo is not enough to win, makes sense.

Also: 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6 white is a bishop down. A bishop is worth 3 pawns. A bishop is enough to win. 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6 is a win for black. That is without an exhaustive calculation to checkmate in all lines.

This is a tremendous advance in chess theory. All through history, chess players have believed that sacrifices were sometimes valid and you have refuted those centuries of chess knowledge by the sheer power of assertion.

More generally, until now it has been believed that "proof by assertion" is a fallacy, and now you have raised it to a valid reasoning technique!

Imagine the things that can be achieved by this approach. Inspired by your lead, I have managed to both prove and disprove the Riemann hypothesis in the space of a minute. This proved mathematics to be inconsistent but then I saved the day by declaring it to be consistent!

Elroch
Optimissed wrote:

I clicked on Elroch's link.

<<<<Chess theorists have long debated how enduring White's initiative is and whether, if both sides play perfectly, the game should end in a win for White or a draw. George Walker wrote in 1846 that, "The first move is an advantage, ... but if properly answered, the first move is of little worth".[29] Steinitz, the first World Champion, who is widely considered the father of modern chess,[30][31][32] wrote in 1889, "It is now conceded by all experts that by proper play on both sides the legitimate issue of a game ought to be a draw."[33] Lasker and Capablanca, the second and third World Champions, agreed.[34][35][36] Reuben Fine, one of the world's leading players from 1936 to 1951,[37] wrote that White's opening advantage is too intangible to be sufficient for a win without an error by Black.[38]>>>>

But the above is improperly described in its introduction. The ensuing isn't evidence of  even the beginnings of a debate. Each past Master is expressing certainty that it's drawn.

ie, "is sufficient"
"is now conceded"
"is of little worth"

No hint of a maybe amongst them.

The same players were wrong in their reasoning in every game of chess they lost over the board, despite committing their full efforts and using a lifetime of experience. At some point in every lost game they played a move which they believed was best and which lost.

Their knowledge and understanding was imperfect, therefore it is ridiculous to suggest they have any basis for certainty in assessments of the initial position in chess, without incorporating any more reasoning than their inductive chess knowledge.

The wiser position is that of Fischer, a stronger player than any of them - strong confidence, not certainty.

tygxc

#3939
"sacrifices were sometimes valid "
++ Of course sacrifices are sometimes valid. But 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6 is no such time.
That is also why the good assistants are needed.

"Give me five years, good assistants and the latest computers
- I will bring all openings to technical endgames and "close" chess." - GM Sveshnikov (+)

The task of the good assistants i.e. (ICCF) (grand)masters is to launch calculations preferably from 26-men positions, but also to end calculations in clearly drawn, or clearly won positions, where they would agree on a draw or where they would resign in a real (correspondence) game.

1 pawn is enough to win.
The plan is to queen the pawn.
In the initial position white is up 1 tempo.
3 tempi = 1 pawn.
You cannot queen 0.33 pawn.
1 tempo is not enough to win.
The game-theoretic value of the initial position is a draw.

After 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6 white is up a bishop.
1 bishop = 3 pawns.
1 pawn is enough to win.
The plan is to queen the pawn.
1 bishop is enough to win.
The plan is to trade the bishop for a pawn.
The position after 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6 is a win for black.

That is simple human logic from simple human knowledge.

Now try the same with brute force by exhaustion

So 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6 is a forced checkmate in 82 moves.
But what if white plays differently?
Then white loses in a different way.


ScroogeMcBird
tygxc wrote:

#3939
"sacrifices were sometimes valid "
++ Of course sacrifices are sometimes valid. But 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6 is no such time.
That is also why the good assistants are needed.

"Give me five years, good assistants and the latest computers
- I will bring all openings to technical endgames and "close" chess." - GM Sveshnikov (+)

The task of the good assistants i.e. (ICCF) (grand)masters is to launch calculations preferably from 26-men positions, but also to end calculations in clearly drawn, or clearly won positions, where they would agree on a draw or where they would resign in a real (correspondence) game.

1 pawn is enough to win.
The plan is to queen the pawn.
In the initial position white is up 1 tempo.
3 tempi = 1 pawn.
You cannot queen 0.33 pawn.
1 tempo is not enough to win.
The game-theoretic value of the initial position is a draw.

After 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6 white is up a bishop.
1 bishop = 3 pawns.
1 pawn is enough to win.
The plan is to queen the pawn.
1 bishop is enough to win.
The plan is to trade the bishop for a pawn.
The position after 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6 is a win for black.

That is simple human logic from simple human knowledge.

Now try the same with brute force by exhaustion

So 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6 is a forced checkmate in 82 moves.
But what if white plays differently?
Then white loses in a different way.


I keep hearing people quoting advanced statistics or whatever to say that Chess is a "draw" before the first move, as if movement isn't required. White has to move, Black has to move. Humans don't play perfect chess and computers don't compete in open events. Thus, whether Chess is "solved" by computers or not doesn't really matters.

Sure, there are vehicles capable of going at supersonic speeds, but we still have olympic sprinting. Humans aren't displaced by machines when it comes to organized competition *because they aren't allowed to enter and their skills are not 100% transferable to humans*.

 

tygxc

#3948
"whether Chess is "solved" by computers or not doesn't really matters."
++ Well, yes and no.
Weakly solving chess requires a proof tree of a billion positions, that is 10 million perfect games. Nobody can memorise 10 million games. However, when somebody has memorised say 10,000 perfect games, he would have a big advantage.

mpaetz
Optimissed wrote:


No-one has shown that I am not reasonably entitled to believe that I know that chess is drawn with best play. One might remark that there was no proper opposition and that a contrary argument could be better represented by cleverer people. But I can assure you (anyone who is so bored that they're reading this) that a discussion with more able people would mean that there was a good chance chance of them understanding and perhaps agreeing with at least some of the points I've raised.

     Of course you are entitled to believe whatever you please on any subject. You can believe that chess is a draw with best play (I concur). You can believe that Britannia still rules the waves. You can believe that Helios draws the sun across the sky in his chariot every day. You can believe you are the best-informed and smartest person commenting in these forums.

     But it should be apparent that what you cannot do is convince everyone else here to agree with your beliefs or give your comments greater respect than their own beliefs.

DiogenesDue
tygxc wrote:

#3939
"sacrifices were sometimes valid "
++ Of course sacrifices are sometimes valid. But 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6 is no such time.
That is also why the good assistants are needed.

"Give me five years, good assistants and the latest computers
- I will bring all openings to technical endgames and "close" chess." - GM Sveshnikov (+)

The task of the good assistants i.e. (ICCF) (grand)masters is to launch calculations preferably from 26-men positions, but also to end calculations in clearly drawn, or clearly won positions, where they would agree on a draw or where they would resign in a real (correspondence) game.

1 pawn is enough to win.
The plan is to queen the pawn.
In the initial position white is up 1 tempo.
3 tempi = 1 pawn.
You cannot queen 0.33 pawn.
1 tempo is not enough to win.
The game-theoretic value of the initial position is a draw.

After 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6 white is up a bishop.
1 bishop = 3 pawns.
1 pawn is enough to win.
The plan is to queen the pawn.
1 bishop is enough to win.
The plan is to trade the bishop for a pawn.
The position after 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6 is a win for black.

That is simple human logic from simple human knowledge.

Now try the same with brute force by exhaustion

So 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6 is a forced checkmate in 82 moves.
But what if white plays differently?
Then white loses in a different way.

You do understand that all the point valuations you are using are approximations, right?  Not absolutes you can use in any calculations whatsoever.

If you set pawns to 1 point by default in the starting position, then all other values are fluid.  The value of a tempo, the value of every other piece, and the value of the pawn itself in a given position.  The statistical valuations at scale are only accurate for the current level of engine play... which is flawed.  

What is the value of the pawn at a2 in this position?

It's 9.  The value of the pawn at a2 is 9.  Or, more correctly, the value of this pawn is the same as the value of a queen's default value, because it already *is* effectively a queen.

What does Stockfish say?  7.5 using chess.com, until the horizon closes in further.  8.7 using the desktop version at 30 ply (over 1 minute).  In the simplest of positions, the engine is 3.33% off with about 3 minutes calculation.  Now extrapolate this to your method...how long did you want each "relevant" position to be analyzed for again...?

dashadow333

so true

DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:
You can believe you are the best-informed and smartest person commenting in the forums

Not necessarily best informed.

Surreal, isn't it?