Chess will never be solved, here's why

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DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

I really don't rate your ability. If you had more of that elusive stuff, you wouldn't be on a par with btickler. Do you really like being on a par with him? Without doubt the most conceited and stupidest person to be commenting here? One grunt for yes, two for no.

On the other hand, don't think you won any points. I was agreeing with mpaetz and that is all. It was not addressed to you and it did not relate to anything I have been discussing with you.

If you don't know the difference between smalltalk and a logical argument, there isn't any hope for you. Ar least, no more hope than for that complete idiot btickler. He's still plugging away at the crap he talks.

Your "one grunt for yes, two for no" directed at Typewriter represents an escalation that is unwarranted.  He didn't do anything but be on the same side of the argument as everyone else that is opposing you, me in particular.  It's abundantly clear who you are angry with, and why.

Consider doing something different.  Also consider that it's a compliment that I am offering this viewpoint instead of just assuming you are an old dog that cannot learn new tricks.

DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

I very often use "innit" it but a major part of your multiple disorders is that you have always had the observational powers of a paraplegic slug.

I just played this game of chess. It's more entertaining even than you are.

Link a couple of posts where you have typed the word "innit" before today...you have almost a decade of posts to choose from.  I don't much care if you use it offline, here on the forums you do not...as anyone on the various solve chess/chess is a draw threads could attest.

Good game, but your opponent kind of gave it up when they played cxb5 and started playing on the queenside while they were gearing up for a kingside attack, then they did it again with Na5, which was chasing your queen one move too far.  Those two tempi would have come in handy on the kingside.  The loss of the piece doesn't really deserve commentary, the game was already over...

MARattigan
tygxc wrote:

....

The weak solution of chess must be accurate:
proof how to draw for black against all reasonable white moves.

But you don't say how that corresponds with your last definition of weakly solved (or any of your previous ones for that matter).

"Weakly solved means that for the initial position a strategy has been determined to achieve the game-theoretic value against any opposition"

Where do "reasonable" moves come into it?

mpaetz
tygxc wrote:

@4559
"The only 100% certain way to decide what is or is not an error would be to calculate all lines from that point in the game to the finish--either checkmate or a draw."
++ Yes, but not all lines are needed, only the reasonable lines.

"If we possessed such a mechanism, chess would already be solved."
++ No, we possess such a mechanism:
3 cloud engines or 3000 desktops during 5 years under supervision of 3 (ICCF) (grand)masters.

     I just don't believe that we can use GMs, engines, or a combination of the two to definitively decide which moves are unreasonable. Top human players and the best engines have proved themselves capable of making mistakes in evaluation. Deliberately letting imperfect entities eliminate a great number of positions from consideration in the search foe a solution will create reasonable doubt as to the validity of the conclusion.

     If we do not eliminate so many lines from examination the size of the task and the amount of time and resources needed to complete it, will grow.

DiogenesDue
mpaetz wrote:

     I just don't believe that we can use GMs, engines, or a combination of the two to definitively decide which moves are unreasonable. Top human players and the best engines have proved themselves capable of making mistakes in evaluation. Deliberately letting imperfect entities eliminate a great number of positions from consideration in the search foe a solution will create reasonable doubt as to the validity of the conclusion.

     If we do not eliminate so many lines from examination the size of the task and the amount of time and resources needed to complete it, will grow.

But...but...it's entirely reasonable to only check 1 out of every 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 positions... wink.png

MARattigan

And the rest. He's talking about competition rules.

DiogenesDue
MARattigan wrote:

And the rest. He's talking about competition rules.

When someone proposes to make a car engine out of cheese, I don't feel the need to tell them their piston timing is off.

Botwin74
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DiogenesDue
Botwin74 wrote:
?

It means that if someone's idea is entirely off the mark, there is no point in discussing all the specific parameters with them at a detailed level.

MARattigan
btickler wrote:
MARattigan wrote:

And the rest. He's talking about competition rules.

When someone proposes to make a car engine out of cheese, I don't feel the need to tell them their piston timing is off.

Not a matter of piston timing. The number of game states (which is what I refer to as positions and what SF works with, so presumably what @tygxc should be starting with) in KBNvK under competition rules is probably comparable with Tromp's number of basic rules positions for the whole game (though it's difficult to say). Not a minor adjustment by any stretch.

DiogenesDue
MARattigan wrote:
btickler wrote:
MARattigan wrote:

And the rest. He's talking about competition rules.

When someone proposes to make a car engine out of cheese, I don't feel the need to tell them their piston timing is off.

Not a matter of piston timing. The number of game states (which is what I refer to as positions and what SF works with, so presumably what @tygxc should be starting with) in KBNvK under competition rules is probably comparable with Tromp's number of basic rules positions for the whole game (though it's difficult to say). Not a minor adjustment by any stretch.

I don't think it's a minor adjustment.  I chose that analogy to be expedient.  It covers the point I was making, but is not 100% applicable.

tygxc

@4618
"The number of chess games is finite" ++ Yes, but too large: between 10^29241 and 10^34082, that is why positions are better than games: 10^44 legal of which 10^17 relevant.

"I had a book with every possible game of chess that could be played
(it might have 10^100 pages or even 10^1000 pages)"
++ At 1 page per game that would be between 10^29241 and 10^34082 pages.

"I would consider that solving chess."
++ No, a 32-men table base with all 10^44 legal positions would strongly solve chess.
Chess can be weakly solved with 10^17 relevant positions.

tygxc

@4621

"Weakly solved means that for the initial position a strategy has been determined
to achieve the game-theoretic value against any opposition"

"Where do "reasonable" moves come into it?"
++ any opposition indicates an act of opposing, i.e. white opposes to black achieving the game-theoretic value of a draw.
1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Ng1 does not oppose, it helps.

tygxc

@4622

"I just don't believe that we can use GMs, engines, or a combination of the two to definitively decide which moves are unreasonable."
++ Yes we can. I am no GM and I can definitively decide that 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6, 1 e4 Nf6 2 Qh5, 1 e4 d5 2 Qg4 etc. are unreasonable: they do not oppose to black achieving a draw.
It definitely needs a combination of (ICCF) (grand)masters and engines.
The human assistants launch the calculations, preferably from 26-men positions and they terminate pointless calculations adjudicating a draw or a win when there is no doubt.
Thus the humans save time for the engine calculations.

"Top human players and the best engines have proved themselves capable of making mistakes in evaluation." ++ That is right, therefore solving chess cannot rely on engine evaluation.

"Deliberately letting imperfect entities eliminate a great number of positions from consideration in the search for a solution will create reasonable doubt as to the validity of the conclusion."
++ No, if any doubt at all, then calculate.
If no doubt at all, then eliminate so as to save pointless calculation.

"If we do not eliminate so many lines from examination the size of the task and the amount of time and resources needed to complete it, will grow."
++ Yes, of course, but using chess knowledge to eliminate unreasonable lines from calculation is beneficial to shrink the size of the task and the time and resources needed to complete it.

DiogenesDue
bollander wrote:
My god, the fact that this DUMB discussion is still running blows my mind

What are you doing here then?  Run along.

DiogenesDue
bollander wrote:
And here comes the brainless ant that keeps pushing the discussion commenting.

Go hug the other lunatic and discuss this idiocy in your DMs

It seems like a fruitless course of action to complain about a topic you are voluntarily reading. 

"Why am I watching this commercial?!  I'm so mad right now..."

"Ummm..."

Elroch

A little test for @tygxc:

How many states (necessary generalisation of position) are there in chess with the 50 move rule?

Can you accurately analyse chess with the 50 move rule while ignoring the 50 move rule?

tygxc

@4637
The 50 moves rule plays no role at all. It is just a practical rule to avoid competition games to drag on for days or weeks as one side tries to win e.g. KRB vs. KR.
Just weakly solve chess disregarding the 50 moves rule.
The solution with the 50-move rule is the same.
In none of the perfect games we have from the ICCF WC did the 50 moves rule play any role.

Elroch
Optimissed wrote: To repeat, Game Theory consists of the application of the theory of games to real life situations,
No. The clue is in the word "theory". Strangely, you seem to confuse "the fact that game theory can be applied" with "its nature".

GT is inapplicable to chess. 
An odd nonsense! For example, the existence of an optimal strategy for each player is a theorem of game theory that applies to a class of games including chess. This theorem applies to chess and implies there exists an optimal strategy for each player in chess.
General theory and application.
<ultra-weakly solved means that the game-theoretic value of the initial position has been determined>

That's fair enough. Chess is [very probably] a draw with best play from both sides.
The "very probably" is important. No expert would say that chess has been ultra-weakly solved, because it hasn't. Some other games have.
it hasn't been determined, by deductive reasoning.
Now you're getting it!
"Ultra-weakly" very clumsy, so you'd do better to call it the "game-theoretic value" or the "game-theoretic result". Not "The ultra-weak solution is that it's a draw", because it's completely unnecessary to use such jargon.
Chess ain't ultra-weakly solved. This is a meaningful fact about the state of knowledge.

<weakly solved means that for the initial position a strategy has been determined to achieve the game-theoretic value against any opposition>

You're already in trouble. That's the problem with jargon. You can always use it to sell ideas or confuse the opposition. Here, you've evidently confused yourself.
Well, he may have confused you, but he is 100% correct, providing no basis for the claim of personal confusion.

Looking at the layout of the solution from top-down, with the game theoretic value being the top of the tree (effectively "the user interface"), that cannot be determined without understanding the stategies that may be used to achieve a draw in all circumstances {"against any opposition"). This is why you're much better off speaking in English and not Jargonese. Forget the idea of "stategy", because in any case it gives the wrong idea, since any full solution of chess is tactical only.
Here you confuse yourself by conflating two uses of the word "strategy". It is always very important to remember that concepts are what are discussed. When a word refers to two different concepts this does not conflate the concepts. Here "strategy" refers to a complete procedure, like the fully analysed solution of a chess problem. In practical chess or in the Art of War, strategy means something very much more vague.
 
You need to accept that the only "strategy" is the exploration of all tactical lines which may be relevant, not forgetting to allow considerable leeway for examining surprising lines, which may otherwise be missed but may lead to a conflicting result.
Dead right.

Deciding which lines may be relevant is an incredibly complex task. Your belief that Stockfish can achieve it, with the assistance and guidance of three GMs, is incredibly naive, if taken seriously. If those trying to argue against you deserve criticism, it's for allowing your ideas to achieve any credibility at all. Your ideas are wrong. There's no doubt about it. It isn't up for argument and you'd do best to realise that, no matter how belatedly.
Yes.

Taking on board what I'm suggesting is the only way you will be able to communicate effectively and, more importantly, to start to get your thoughts in order. There isn't anyone else, commenting on this thread, who seems capable of pointing out the problems you're causing for yourself, by using terms which you don't seem to properly understand, even in the context in which you're trying to use them."
There is a sizeable subset of participants who are 100% ok with the definitions, though.

 

Elroch
tygxc wrote:

@4637
The 50 moves rule plays no role at all.

Only if the result of a game plays no role at all (i.e. you change the rules so a draw and a win as the same value. After which there is no game).

The 50 move rule changes the optimal value of many positions in games. You should be able to understand that.

So, have another go.