Chess will never be solved, here's why

Sort:
Avatar of DiogenesDue
tygxc wrote:

++ Many experts wrote chess is a draw and provided arguments, there is not yet a formal proof.

Produce one paper.  Not a chess player, not a math hobbyist, but at the very least a Stockfish developer or the like.  Hans Berliner would do.

If you can produce *one*, then we can tackle "many".

Avatar of MaxAlme
hi
Avatar of DiogenesDue

Interesting article that may have bearing on this topic somewhere down the line...

https://news.yahoo.com/googles-quantum-supremacy-usurped-researchers-183622602.html

Apparently Google's quantum supremacy claim is not so supreme.  Not that it ever amounted to much, since quantum supremacy was defined as quantum computers being able to do a single task faster than traditional computers, which is more like "quantum entry-level achievement".

Avatar of haiaku
tygxc wrote

Wikipedia gives a reference, but misquotes it.
This is what the source, a true Physicist wrote:
“Quantum mechanics” is the description of the behavior of matter and light in all its details and, in particular, of the happenings on an atomic scale. 
No 'theory' here.

I said I was not going to argue with you for today, but you really amuse me. What reference and what source? That page gives a lot of sources, like (green enphases mine):

Explanatory note 2: Physicist John C. Baez cautions, "there's no way to understand the interpretation of quantum mechanics without also being able to solve quantum mechanics problems – to understand the theory, you need to be able to use it (and vice versa)"

Reference 20: Landau, L.D.; Lifschitz, E.M. (1977). Quantum Mechanics: Non-Relativistic Theory. Vol. 3 (3rd ed.). Pergamon Press. 

etc.

Sometimes a physicist mentions that QM, SR and GR are theories, other times s/he does not. As usual, you deliberately make use of "cherry picking".

Avatar of Optimissed
lfPatriotGames wrote:
 

Any guess about the ultimate outcome of chess is hypothesizing. The guess "chess is a forced win for white" is just as valid as the guess "chess is a draw". Both are equal because both have good reasons to exist. 



Hi, equally valid doesn't mean equally correct. "Valid" sort of means "on subject". An invalid guess means that the answer to "is chess a draw?" is "a piano".

You're confusing guessing with scientifically based hypothesis. We have every reason to believe that the scientifically based hypothesis that chess is a draw is correct. There's no reason to believe "chess is a win" to be correct, so you're comparing mushrooms with octopusses. Superficially similar but not alike in reality.

Avatar of Optimissed
btickler wrote:
tygxc wrote:

++ Many experts wrote chess is a draw and provided arguments, there is not yet a formal proof.

Produce one paper.  Not a chess player, not a math hobbyist, but at the very least a Stockfish developer or the like.  Hans Berliner would do.

If you can produce *one*, then we can tackle "many".


I'm afraid they considered it so trivial and obvious that by coincidence, they all wrote it on toilet paper and flushed it away. Seriously, you really should not pose as an intellectual and ask people to produce "papers" when they are irrelevant. You'll just get what you asked for.

Avatar of Optimissed
haiaku wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

The reason I sometimes criticised you, from the beginning of your posting here, is that I could tell there are basic conflicts within your model of science.

 

 

Which conflicts?

Ok, so you are not a positivist (I said that because you said that to you mathematical induction does not prove things better than inductive reasoning), but how do you prove things? To me a statement is proven when it holds true in any possible case. That does not mean that in real life or during a game of chess I do not make decisions based on incomplete informations. I bet, because I am compelled to do so or because the benefit-cost ratio is advantageous. But if we bet that the game-theoretic value of chess is a draw, how on earth could we say, without an exhaustive proof, that it is a draw with 100% of certainity?


Seriously, you need to address the short essay I wrote on how people can know things. Then attempt to stand back and work out how it applies to you.

I can give you a hint. Do you understand what deduction is? If you understand it, then on what does it depend? And what has mankind always done, when something trivial needs to be considered, to determine whether it's reliable?

Avatar of Optimissed
BaurzhanMakhambetov wrote:
THIS IS DUMB
NO ONE EVER SAID THIS
WHY SO MANY USELESS COMMENTS

I rather agree.

Avatar of DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

I'm afraid they considered it so trivial and obvious that by coincidence, they all wrote it on toilet paper and flushed it away. Seriously, you really should not pose as an intellectual and ask people to produce "papers" when they are irrelevant. You'll just get what you asked for.

I get that sometimes you think yourself clever in these retorts, but no.  Tygxc made a ridiculous claim, one that is easily refuted by asking for evidence.  You, on the other hand, are just desperate to achieve the appearance of having bested me.  It's not going to happen.

Avatar of Optimissed

Apart from the fact I'm obviously a better debater than you?

You really ought not to ask people for academic papers. Honestly, it makes you look desperate because it's just so naïve-cliché-ten-years-ago. Next you'll be telling people you'll be looking forward to when they win their Nobel Prize.

Avatar of Optimissed
BaurzhanMakhambetov wrote:
THIS OPTIMIZED GUY IS FRAZY

That's very kind. Thankyou very much. Frazy much be quite a compliment in your language.

Avatar of Optimissed
btickler wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

I'm afraid they considered it so trivial and obvious that by coincidence, they all wrote it on toilet paper and flushed it away. Seriously, you really should not pose as an intellectual and ask people to produce "papers" when they are irrelevant. You'll just get what you asked for.

I get that sometimes you think yourself clever in these retorts, but no.  Tygxc made a ridiculous claim, one that is easily refuted by asking for evidence.  You, on the other hand, are just desperate to achieve the appearance of having bested me.  It's not going to happen.

Anyway, btickler, one thing I and a lot of players who are much stronger than you agree with each other about is that we know chess is a draw, just like we know the sun will rise tomorrow, even though we can't prove that it will.

Haikauikaiikiu or whatever is similar to you. All mouth but scared to criticise the short essay you wrongly called "circular logic".

Avatar of 1a3
TheChessIntellectReturns wrote:

Imagine a chess position of X paradigms. 

Now, a chess computer rated 3000 solves that position. All well and good. 

Could another computer rated a zillion solve that position better than Rybka? 

No, because not even chess computer zillion could solve the Ruy Lopez better than a sad FIDE master could. 

the point is, there's chess positions with exact solutions. Either e4, or d4, or c4, etc. 

nothing in the world can change that. 

So if you are talking about chess as a competitive sport, then chess has already been solved by kasparov, heck, by capablanca. 

If you are talking chess as a meaningless sequence of algorithms, where solving chess equates not to logical solutions of positional and tactical prowess, but as 'how many chess positions could ensure from this one?'' type of solutions, then, the solutions are infinite. 

So can chess be solved? If it is as a competitive sport where one side must, win, then it has already been solved. Every possible BEST move in chess has been deduced long ago. 

If chess is a meaningless set of moves, with no goal in sight, then sure, chess will never be solved. 

 

Nf3 and g3 would also be a valid solution

Avatar of DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

Apart from the fact I'm obviously a better debater than you?

You really ought not to ask people for academic papers. Honestly, it makes you look desperate because it's just so naïve-cliché-ten-years-ago. Next you'll be telling people you'll be looking forward to when they win their Nobel Prize.

You can't debate your way out of paper bag.  Never have been able to in all my time here.  That's why you have to rely on talking up your own intellect and claiming you are winning arguments, instead of actually ever doing it.  

Moving on...

Avatar of DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

Anyway, btickler, one thing I and a lot of players who are much stronger than you agree with each other about is that we know chess is a draw, just like we know the sun will rise tomorrow, even though we can't prove that it will.

Haikauikaiikiu or whatever is similar to you. All mouth but scared to criticise the short essay you wrongly called "circular logic".

Yet another "and another thing" post from you.  It's becoming a trend.  Did you really just add another reply to the already replied-to post just to parrot Tygxc's previous comment and then make an oh-so-close to racist comment about another poster?  

When you get these "and another thing" impulses, I would sit on them and look for a better move.

Avatar of Optimissed

Called by many the best debater in the English language on Facebook and I can't debate.

Discussion and debate is pointless, when there are those who're so confident and yet so dumb, they can never distinguish when their opponent makes a good point. You don't understand the scientific principle that evidence comes first. Sometimes it isn't possible to reach a deductive conclusion, which requires premises. This is such a case and so we go on the available evidence. There's zero evidence pointing to a win. All the evidence points to a draw. If you can't draw a useful conclusion from that, you are trapped inside your own paper bag.

Avatar of Elroch
Optimissed wrote:

Called by many the best debater in the English language on Facebook [...]

It's interesting how narcissists say things like that and expect people to believe them.

Avatar of Optimissed

btickler, for when you get back to me with your usual disparaging, irrelevant nonsense, and you usually wait a while so I'm offline and can't reply. Well, try to come up with something substantial. Heaven knows, asking tygxc for academic papers is asking for substantial enough things and you should know very well, it generally wouldn't be considered worth a paper on it. That's why you ask for it. Yet all there ever is from you is passive-aggression and dodgy rhetoric.

You need to think about evidence, man. That's all there is. Just endless evidence for a draw and a few "what-ifs" from weak chess players who think "maybe if there's a game for 1500 moves, it could be a win". Now, why should that be a win any more than one of 45 moves? Any reason?

Nope.

Avatar of Optimissed
Elroch wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

Called by many the best debater in the English language on Facebook [...]

It's interesting how narcissists say things like that and expect people to believe them.


Yes, you do. You automatically think you're cleverer than anyone else and yet you're unaware of your lack of ability in anything but your speciality of statistics. I know you very well. You even led me and others to believe you had a PhD for several years, until I actually looked at you in real life.

Avatar of snoozyman
Typing in CAPS makes you feel good doesn’t?