Chess will never be solved, here's why - Chess Forums - Page 256

PowerfulMover

Dec 17, 2022

0

#5101

well maybe your right Optimissed.. but for the Human mind.. for a chess engine i'm sure will eventually figure out chess just like it did with checkers....

avramtparra

Dec 17, 2022

0

#5102

tygxc wrote:

@6717

"White will win if both sides play perfectly" ++ No, when both sides play perfectly it is a draw.

"unless you go through the entire decision tree of possible moves you could never know"
++ It is beneficial to incorporate game knowledge into game solving.
If the 4 best moves cannot win for white, then the 16 worst moves cannot win either.

"what you mean by 146 moves exhausts all the moves"
There are 10^44 legal positions. 10^44 = 2^146.
Thus a forced win of 546 moves must contain a string of forced moves by the defending side.
146 choices between 2 moves yields more positions than chess has legal positions.

"8x8 chess is in EXP time"
++ To strongly solve chess 10^44 legal positions need to be visisted.
That is beyond present capability. It might become possible with a quantum computer.
To weakly solve chess 10^17 relevant positions need to be visited.
That can be done with 3 powerful computers running for 5 years.
Many here still fail to understand the difference between strongly solving and weakly solving.

"your method of pruning the data"
++ It is not my method, it is the same method that Schaeffer used to weakly solve Checkers.

What are you talking about? It literally is Game Theory, both sides Black and White have perfect information therefore making impossible to know if its A Win, Loss or Drawn for any side. Its literally a theorem and its described in the quote I posted

avramtparra

Dec 17, 2022

0

#5103

tygxc wrote:

@6717

"White will win if both sides play perfectly" ++ No, when both sides play perfectly it is a draw.

"unless you go through the entire decision tree of possible moves you could never know"
++ It is beneficial to incorporate game knowledge into game solving.
If the 4 best moves cannot win for white, then the 16 worst moves cannot win either.

"what you mean by 146 moves exhausts all the moves"
There are 10^44 legal positions. 10^44 = 2^146.
Thus a forced win of 546 moves must contain a string of forced moves by the defending side.
146 choices between 2 moves yields more positions than chess has legal positions.

"8x8 chess is in EXP time"
++ To strongly solve chess 10^44 legal positions need to be visisted.
That is beyond present capability. It might become possible with a quantum computer.
To weakly solve chess 10^17 relevant positions need to be visited.
That can be done with 3 powerful computers running for 5 years.
Many here still fail to understand the difference between strongly solving and weakly solving.

"your method of pruning the data"
++ It is not my method, it is the same method that Schaeffer used to weakly solve Checkers.

@6732

What are you talking about? It literally is Game Theory, both sides Black and White have perfect information therefore making impossible to know if its A Win, Loss or Drawn for any side. Its literally a theorem and its described in the quote I posted. you deadass have to go through the whole decision tree because of this

Just read about it here, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_information

tygxc

Dec 17, 2022

0

#5104

@6742

"It literally is Game Theory"
++ Game theory is that each position including the initial posiytions is either a draw, a win, or a loss.

"both sides Black and White have perfect information therefore making impossible to know if its A Win, Loss or Drawn for any side." ++ It is quite possible for manty positions to determine if it is a draw, a win, or a loss. The initial position is a draw. 1 g4? or 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6? are losses for white. 1 e4 b5?, 1 e4 f5?, 1 d4 g5?, 1 d4 c5? are losses for black.

avramtparra

Dec 17, 2022

0

#5105

tygxc wrote:

@6742

"It literally is Game Theory"
++ Game theory is that each position including the initial posiytions is either a draw, a win, or a loss.

"both sides Black and White have perfect information therefore making impossible to know if its A Win, Loss or Drawn for any side." ++ It is quite possible for manty positions to determine if it is a draw, a win, or a loss. The initial position is a draw. 1 g4? or 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6? are losses for white. 1 e4 b5?, 1 e4 f5?, 1 d4 g5?, 1 d4 c5? are losses for black.

@6745

yeah from those positions it is, the question is to derive it from the start. Thats solving for all 8x8 chess

tygxc

Dec 17, 2022

0

#5106

@6746
"the question is to derive it from the start. Thats solving for all 8x8 chess"
++ No that is not solving 8x8 chess.
Determining if the starting position is a draw, a win, or a loss is ultra-weakly solving chess. There is massive evidence from millions of human and engine games as well as the logical argument that a tempo is not enough to win to know that the initial position is a draw.

Weakly solving chess is figuring out how to draw from the starting position. It is thus the path from the initial position to other drawn positions until a known draw, like a 7-men endgame table base draw or a prior 3-fold repetition.

Strongly solving chess is figuring out for all legal positions if they are draw, a win, or a loss.

avramtparra

Dec 17, 2022

0

#5107

tygxc wrote:

@6746
"the question is to derive it from the start. Thats solving for all 8x8 chess"
++ No that is not solving 8x8 chess.
Determining if the starting position is a draw, a win, or a loss is ultra-weakly solving chess. There is massive evidence from millions of human and engine games as well as the logical argument that a tempo is not enough to win to know that the initial position is a draw.

Weakly solving chess is figuring out how to draw from the starting position. It is thus the path from the initial position to other drawn positions until a known draw, like a 7-men endgame table base draw or a prior 3-fold repetition.

Strongly solving chess is figuring out for all legal positions if they are draw, a win, or a loss.

"Solving chess means finding an optimal strategy for the game of chess, that is, one by which one of the players (White or Black) can always force a victory, or either can force a draw (see solved game)" - Wikipedia

The only way to do that is to go through the entire position tree because you don't know if black's position is a starting loss. Because game theory says both sides have perfect information, and like you said about tempo advantage, you literally don't know if the starting position is a win loss or draw of white. I am not sure what you are saying, because what I am talking about is literally "solving chess", and this is coming from someone who took a class on weak and strong deterministic problems.

I can see what you are saying about, "Strongly solving"chess, but if you think about its the same case, where you would need a quantum computer to just go through all the variations, and if you think about it, if you find the most optimal solution any other legal position would be a loss from which ever side changed from the given optimal solution and you wouldnt have to go through all those tree paths

EmperorChola

Dec 18, 2022

0

#5108

Chess is a closed game and a perfect closed game always ends in a draw. Kind of like tic tac toe. Chess cannot be perfectly solved but that doesn't mean its unsolvable.

magipi

Dec 18, 2022

0

#5109

EmperorChola wrote:

Chess is a closed game and a perfect closed game always ends in a draw. Kind of like tic tac toe.

Except it does not. On a bigger board it is a win for white. It is only a draw on a 3x3 board because you run out of space.

1cbb

Dec 18, 2022

0

#5110

ok but who

hafooocloud

Dec 18, 2022

0

#5111

Elroch

Dec 18, 2022

0

#5112

tygxc wrote:

The initial position is a draw. 1 g4? or 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6? are losses for white. 1 e4 b5?, 1 e4 f5?, 1 d4 g5?, 1 d4 c5? are losses for black.

Let's all give a rousing round of applause for proof by assertion!

[Yeah, that's sarcasm].

SimeonKrustev

Dec 18, 2022

0

#5113

Very Interesting

PowerfulMover

Dec 18, 2022

0

#5114

I'm sure a super computer will be able to prove chess is a draw with perfect play. maybe even a win for white.

PowerfulMover

Dec 18, 2022

0

#5115

Only time will tell... In the meantime me and some friends made a new game that i will be posting online chess.com very soon.

PowerfulMover

Dec 18, 2022

0

#5116

There will always be something fun and challenging to play regardless.

magipi

Dec 18, 2022

0

#5117

PowerfulMover sounds like a spambot, constructing sentences by rearranging previous posts.

lfPatriotGames

Dec 18, 2022

0

#5118

magipi wrote:

EmperorChola wrote:

Chess is a closed game and a perfect closed game always ends in a draw. Kind of like tic tac toe.

Except it does not. On a bigger board it is a win for white. It is only a draw on a 3x3 board because you run out of space.

Interesting.

DiogenesDue

Dec 18, 2022

0

#5119

EmperorChola wrote:

Chess is a closed game and a perfect closed game always ends in a draw. Kind of like tic tac toe. Chess cannot be perfectly solved but that doesn't mean its unsolvable.

That's the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. You need to define both "closed" and "perfect", I guess.

You can add one rule to chess and turn it into a forced win immediately. Much like you can turn Tic Tac Toe into a 4x4x4 board and have it be a forced win for Xs.

The general premise that a turn based game can always be equalized just shows a complete lack of imagination and understanding of game mechanics. You can design games that produce any of the 3 outcomes, it's not very hard at all.

Elroch

Dec 18, 2022

0

#5120

btickler wrote:

EmperorChola wrote:

Chess is a closed game and a perfect closed game always ends in a draw. Kind of like tic tac toe. Chess cannot be perfectly solved but that doesn't mean its unsolvable.

That's the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

I feel it is first among equals.