cool
Chess will never be solved, here's why
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Jan 27, 2023
0
#5823
tygxc wrote:
@7823
"I would recommend reading the wikipedia article on solving chess."
++ That is no good source. It even starts by misquoting its own reference.
"get it from the experts" ++ Prof. van den Herik is an expert. Wikipedia authors are not.
Prof. van den Herik also starts by misquoting his own reference.
If you're looking for a good definition of weakly solved so you can completely ignore it, Allis is quoted by both and doesn't quote anyone - ergo can't misquote anyone,
Jan 27, 2023
0
#5824
Optimissed wrote:
MEGACHE3SE wrote:
"So now you agree with the obvious fact that 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6? loses for white and hence does not need any consideration? 83 or 85 is basically the same: a loss."
the whole point is that you are unable to prove your claim was correct.
like with g4, you didnt show that 2. a4, 2. b4, 2. c4, 2. d4, 2. e4, 2. f4, 2. g5, 2. h4 lost. you only showed that that specific combination lost.
Regarding something as obvious as 2. Ba6 losing and you claim that it has to be proven, I believe it has been proven already but really that isn't the point, since a good chess player will know beyond doubt that it loses and so a proof that it loses isn't necessary. There isn't any need for a proof and it would be a waste of time and effort except as an academic exercise.
Elroch also believes that we don't know that 2. Ba6 loses. That's a misunderstanding of the meaning of knowledge. I can show why knowledge cannot depend entirely on deduction. If all proof depends on deduction then it's impossible to prove the correctness of much of our knowledge.
I'm glad you and I are getting on so well now.
ba6 has not been proven yet to be losing. although i wouldnt be surprised of we manage it in a few years.
"If all proof depends on deduction then it's impossible to prove the correctness of much of our knowledge."
this is VERY VERY VERY TRUE.
however, with chess, we have a lot of axioms, so deduction isnt too bad. we can hold a chess proof to a higher standard than an everyday 'proof'
this is something that txgyc misses. its not good enough to be 99% confident to consider something solved.
my opinion on whether chess will ever be solved is that we will have extreme confidence, but not proof - we will all be able to agree that chess is a draw, loss, or win, but wont be able to prove it to a 'solved' standard.
Jan 27, 2023
0
#5825
Optimissed wrote:
I would be rather surprised if it hasn't been proven to lose. Since you're so keen on proving everything, where is your proof that it hasn't been proven to lose? Do you have one? If not, why are you criticising others?
i dont have a proof of math standard that there isnt a proof out there (in fact, such a feat would be impossible), but I am proposing a lack of knowledge, which is falsifiable. I will happily admit being wrong if you can find one, but you have to find one first.
Jan 27, 2023
0
#5826
Optimissed wrote:
I used the onboard chess.com engine to show that 1. e4 e5 2. Ba6 loses for white. It took me about five minutes. I captured with the pawn, which is logically stronger than the knight capture even if some engines disagree and then I deliberately made one substandard move for black, which was to defend e5 with Bd6, blocking the [awn on d7. Even so, black systematically improved the advantage over white and after ten or so moves, black's advantage was shown as about 4.5. There was nothing visible that even hinted that white could turn it round. Proof enough for me and probably for anyone who isn't unreasonable.
ah but you see, math is VERY UNREASONABLE.
Jan 27, 2023
0
#5827
Optimissed wrote:
I used the onboard chess.com engine to show that 1. e4 e5 2. Ba6 loses for white. It took me about five minutes. I captured with the pawn, which is logically stronger than the knight capture even if some engines disagree and then I deliberately made one substandard move for black, which was to defend e5 with Bd6, blocking the [awn on d7. Even so, black systematically improved the advantage over white and after ten or so moves, black's advantage was shown as about 4.5. There was nothing visible that even hinted that white could turn it round. Proof enough for me and probably for anyone who isn't unreasonable.
Would that be the chess.com engine that scores the Nalimov tablebase 66.9 with just a couple of pawns on each side in a simple mate in 34? (Rybka playing both sides had access to the Nalimov tablebase in the game reviewed below.)
If it took you less than five minutes to win after 1. e4 e5 2. Ba6, then you either mated in less than ten moves or gave it less than 30 seconds per move. Which? Can you still prove it with 2 hours for 40 moves, repeating?
Jan 27, 2023
0
#5828
Optimissed wrote:
MEGACHE3SE wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
I would be rather surprised if it hasn't been proven to lose. Since you're so keen on proving everything, where is your proof that it hasn't been proven to lose? Do you have one? If not, why are you criticising others?
i dont have a proof of math standard that there isnt a proof out there (in fact, such a feat would be impossible), but I am proposing a lack of knowledge, which is falsifiable. I will happily admit being wrong if you can find one, but you have to find one first.
My wife's back from work and ting. I have some stuff to do.
However, I will say this. Lack of knowledge works both ways and I think a reasonable person would assume that a strong player can tell if something is definitely not losing by force.
Knowledge is often a logical construction on axioms, consisting of deduction. Axioms themselves cannot be deduced. They are mainly based on observation and common sense. Therefore, nothing we know ultimately depends on deduction. You can make whatever construction you wish on that. You can say that knowledge is impossible, and I wouldn't care to try to refute that. However, I think that knowledge is correctly defined as strong highly justified. belief.
have a good day.
I think it could be solved but would take so much storage space that no one would ever do it.
@7893
"it could be solved but would take so much storage space that no one would ever do it"
++ 10^17 positions is about 10^15 games. That can be stored.
The time (5 years) and the money $ 3,000,000 is more of a problem.
@7881
"Prof. van den Herik also starts by misquoting his own reference."
++ No, in his 2002 paper he improves the wording the 1994 PhD thesis of his student,
but he correctly acknowledges its provenance.
Professor > student
2002 > 1994
Jan 27, 2023
0
#5834
And I just Reached, 7900.
A multiple of 100.
Speaking of One Hundred.
https://www.chess.com/forum/view/off-topic/an-oldie-but-goody
Jan 27, 2023
0
#5835
tygxc wrote:
@7881
"Prof. van den Herik also starts by misquoting his own reference."
++ No, in his 2002 paper he improves the wording the 1994 PhD thesis of his student,
but he correctly acknowledges its provenance.
Professor > student ≫ beetle ⋙ @tygxc
2002 > 1994
Wikipaedia says (text in blue references in red).
A two-player game can be solved on several levels:[1][2]
Ultra-weak
Prove whether the first player will win, lose or draw from the initial position, given perfect play on both sides. This can be a non-constructive proof (possibly involving a strategy-stealing argument) that need not actually determine any moves of the perfect play.
Weak
Provide an algorithm that secures a win for one player, or a draw for either, against any possible moves by the opponent, from the beginning of the game.
Strong
Provide an algorithm that can produce perfect moves from any position, even if mistakes have already been made on one or both sides.
[1] Victor Allis (1994). "PhD thesis: Searching for Solutions in Games and Artificial Intelligence" (PDF). Department of Computer Science. University of Limburg. Retrieved 2012-07-14.
[2] ^ H. Jaap van den Herik, Jos W.H.M. Uiterwijk, Jack van Rijswijck, Games solved: Now and in the future, Artificial Intelligence 134 (2002) 277–311.
The citations in Wikipaedia justify the preceding statement that a game can be solved on several levels (which corresponds with the content of both papers referred to). No citations follow the definitions themselves.
When discussing the solution of games, at least three different definitions of a solution
can be used. We use the terminology proposed by Allis [7]. Here ultra-weakly solved means
that the game-theoretic value of the initial position has been determined, weakly solved
means that for the initial position a strategy has been determined to achieve the game-
theoretic value against any opposition, and strongly solved is being used for a game for
which such a strategy has been determined for all legal positions.
[7] L.V. Allis, Searching for solutions in games and artificial intelligence, Ph.D. Thesis, University of Limburg, Maastricht, 1994.
The paper states that Allis' definitions from his cited paper are used, but the text he includes doesn't mean the same. That is not correctly acknowledging provenance; that is a misquote.
Moreover he improves on it only in the sense that you improve on all the papers that you quote. I have already pointed out in #7691, #7717 and #7738 why the misquoted definition is unworkable.
Just as well you have no intention of using it.
Jan 27, 2023
0
#5836
Optimissed wrote:
Yes, I prefer basic English words used accurately rather than anything that confuses others, since it's pretty clear that even some of the "experts" are confused. Especially the ones here. You certainly couldn't construct a logical argument that refutes anything I have said here so you just try to pretend nonchalance where in reality you're as lost as the rest of them.
You wish to use the word "good" to describe the precise quality of moves. The OED has 48 definitions of this word, with dozens of sub-definitions giving us well over 100 shades of meaning. Not to mention dozens of colloquial uses from different areas of the English-speaking world.
For you to use this term to explain the quality of a move, you would have to add an explanation of exactly what you mean every time to be sure readers didn't quite reasonably think it meant something slightly different from your purpose. Everyone has their own opinion of the meaning of simple words; you often say you don't agree with someone's use of a word, noting a different definition you prefer.
An agreed-upon unambiguous terminology preferable. That posters here disagree about some terms does muddle the debate, but "simple" words with multiple shades of meaning will hardly solve this.
Jan 27, 2023
0
#5837
Optimissed wrote:
...
It already has to be done with the sub-par and very ambiguous nomenclature these people insist upon. ...
No it doesn't have to be done. It's already been done. That's the point.
Only to those who take the trouble to find out what they're talking about, of course.
Jan 27, 2023
0
#5838
Optimissed wrote:
mpaetz wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
Yes, I prefer basic English words used accurately rather than anything that confuses others, since it's pretty clear that even some of the "experts" are confused. Especially the ones here. You certainly couldn't construct a logical argument that refutes anything I have said here so you just try to pretend nonchalance where in reality you're as lost as the rest of them.
You wish to use the word "good" to describe the precise quality of moves. The OED has 48 definitions of this word, with dozens of sub-definitions giving us well over 100 shades of meaning. Not to mention dozens of colloquial uses from different areas of the English-speaking world.
For you to use this term to explain the quality of a move, you would have to add an explanation of exactly what you mean every time to be sure readers didn't quite reasonably think it meant something slightly different from your purpose. Everyone has their own opinion of the meaning of simple words; you often say you don't agree with someone's use of a word, noting a different definition you prefer.
An agreed-upon unambiguous terminology preferable. That posters here disagree about some terms does muddle the debate, but "simple" words with multiple shades of meaning will hardly solve this.
Not at all. Just like any other word with a specialised definition, that definition would be accepted and understood within context. That's how language works and those being critical don't understand language. It already has to be done with the sub-par and very ambiguous nomenclature these people insist upon. That is, words have to be understood in context. My simplifying suggestions make a lot of sense. Only to those who can think, of course.
Not at all. The flaw with your "simplifying" system is that using words that different people might interpret in different ways clarifies nothing. Haven't you noticed the disagreements and confusion in many chess.com forums over the meaning of "good move", "best move", "perfect play" and the like? The problem is that "good" does NOT have "a specialized definition". You could use any term you wish for the specialized meaning you propose for "good", but its variety of uses in common English will inevitably lead to misunderstanding. You might just as well call the moves that fit your stipulations a "pineapple" move, but don't expect everyone who sees this term to understand your precise meaning.
Jan 27, 2023
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#5839
Optimissed wrote
Incidentally, chess cannot be represented mathematically.
By definition chess can be represented by math. In fact, there’s an entire field of math dedicated to stuff like chess - game theory
Jan 27, 2023
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#5840
Tygxc what the heck r u doing, you still haven’t proved that black isn’t winning, your strategy stealing claim is wrong, and you still don’t understand what it means to weakly solve a game. By DEFINITION a weakly solved game has an algorithm for perfect play, and yet you claim that a weakly solves game has no such algorithm.
z5 g8 h6 ke1 checkmate